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PCN. Am I caught bang to rights or can I appeal, Blue Badge holder ticketed for parking in wrong bay
The Miser
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 14:57
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The other half took her newly bereaved Aunt (a Blue Badge holder) to the bank to sort out her affairs, just off the high road there are 3 disabled parking bays.

She parked in one bay, placed the badge and clock as required, came back an hour later and the car had been ticketed.

The issue is that 2 of the bays are standard timed bays, the third is residents disabled parking bay within an RPZ, because it is
located as part of the same run of disabled bays and is next to a commercial building she did not notice (no defence I know) she just saw a disabled bay and thought she was entitled to park there.

The annoying thing is if she had parked a few yards down the road she could have parked in any normal permit holders bay without incurring a penalty.

I have attached screenshots from google maps showing the run of bays, and the bay she parked in, the silver estate car is parked in the same bay she was parked in.

The signs seem to me to be OK, unless I'm missing something, with the resident's disabled bay sign seeming prominent enough, but of course, someone like my wife in an unfamiliar area and not knowing the 'rules' about RPZ disabled parking in Newham (which I've just read) would get caught out.

Is there any kind of appeal or legislation I can use to appeal this, or is it another case of got trapped by the buggers so pay up?

It seems £65 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a simple mistake angry5.gif

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Just trying to live my life without the 'Sheriffs men' threatening to burn my hovel and enslave my family if I don't pay some ridiculous made up tax.
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post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 14:57
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 15:50
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This a new one on me.

Newham have disabled bays for individual permit holders marked with their specific code/number but I cannot recall a "general purpose" disabled bay for anyone who holds the Newham version of the BB. I wonder if this is legal.


In the first instance I would go for a "Sorry Guv" approach, indicate the confusion and ask the Council to exercise its discretion and cancel the PCN.

If that doesn't work I think we have other cases in Newham where signs have been less than adequate and the system of their own disabled badges has had loopholes.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 16:24
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How do you know that you were in a RPZ ??
You were, East Ham but as the driver, how do you know?

Newham says that you can park in disabled permit holder bays except in RPZs
http://adultsocialcare.newham.gov.uk/pages...ge-parking.aspx
Newham's RPZ website shows this area as an RPZ.
https://www.newham.gov.uk/Documents/Transpo...Ham-RPZ-map.pdf
But entry signs do not say Resident's Parking Zone.
They say Controlled Zone, ie a CPZ. Or did in 2018
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5335195,0...33;1b1!2i40


So how does the aware BB holder that knows that they can park in disabled permit bays outside RPZs know that this is an RPZ ???
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The Miser
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 18:04
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The thing is the BB is issued by Newham the Aunt lives in another RPZ, but as she doesn't own a car she doesn't qualify for a permit. (They say you don't need a car but then ask for vehicle details registered to that address)

Looking at the replies so far I gather that BB RPZ restrictions only apply to designated disabled bays in RPZ's, ie: ones which have been allocated to a specific individual.

Newham's BB blurb says :

"All residential streets in Newham are now within residential parking zones. Disabled resident parking bays can only be used by Blue Badge holders who have and display a valid disabled resident parking permit for their RPZ."


And

"You will need a free disabled resident parking permit to park in the bay (One allocated to a specific RPZ resident). We will write to you to let you know when you can apply for a disabled resident parking permit. A Blue Badge is not valid within a disabled resident parking bay.

It also says:

"However there are some disabled persons' parking bays near shops and community facilities (which is where this bay was placed) which any Blue Badge holder can use. Make sure you check the nearby sign before you park as there may be a maximum length of stay."


looking at this it seems that unless Newham can prove that this bay has been designated to a specific individual then they cannot enforce it as an RPZ disabled residents parking bay.

I have never known that unallocated disabled bays could be provided within an RPZ solely for random BB holders holding residents permits within that RPZ, I thought that all random bays were for any BB holder.

If they do this it would mean that they could select any bay at random and reserve it solely for disabled residents in that RPZ, whether needed or not, which would be strange, to say the least, and discriminating against BB holders outside of a specific area.

The last point is that all these rules apply to RPZs Newham have marked on the map, but not on the roads, so even if my wife has read the rules there is no way she could tell she was in an RPZ as Controlled zone has a completely different meaning to RPZ.

Excuse my ramblings, just sharing my thoughts, am I on the right track here?



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Just trying to live my life without the 'Sheriffs men' threatening to burn my hovel and enslave my family if I don't pay some ridiculous made up tax.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 18:14
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Be careful with what the actual contravention is.
The sign is specifically a Permit Bay sign...added wording does not make it a disabled bay.
Whether the disabled resident wording is allowable or authorised may be open to question as well.
And the PCN is for failing to display a permit.

But again, while Newham may call them RPZs and all the blurb relates to RPZs, what are they and how are they signed ?
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hcandersen
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 19:30
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Unless the council have the SoS's authorisation - and IMO this cannot be exercised to act contrary to a specified sign: the power is complementary, not substitutional - then the use of the Disabled road marking is not permitted with a permit bay, and it is a permit bay because the wheelchair icon, which is otherwise mandatory, is not present.
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 19:31
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Personally I'd go for the plea for discretion in the first instance, I'd estimate well over half of all PCNs issued to BB holders for an honest mistake tend to get cancelled, based on what we see on here.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Miser
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 13:21
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I've had a look and decided to go for the soft approach and ask for discretion hows this for a first draft

Any advice or edits would be welcome.


Re PCN Number: PNXXXXXXXX

On the 13th March 2019, I took my recently bereaved Aunt to the bank on the High Street to discuss matters concerning her late husband.

As my Aunt is a Blue badge holder I looked for somewhere close to the bank to park and noted a run of 3 adjacent disabled bays alongside the pound shop in Skeffington Road.

I parked in a bay and displayed my Aunts Blue badge in the required manner and supported her to the bank. Upon my return, I found the above-mentioned PCN attached to my car.

I had parked in what I believed was a contentious manner, not on a yellow line or in a paid parking bay, but in a bay apparently marked as for use by a disabled person.

I had no idea why this PCN was issued and thought it an error on your parking attendant’s part.

I would make the following observations:

As a resident of Newham My Aunt holds a blue badge issued by Newham council, she does not own a car as she is unable to drive and as such, there is no car registered to her address so does not qualify for a residential parking permit.
From my understanding a Blue badge entitles her, whilst being carried as a passenger, or if someone is collecting or dropping her off, to park in any disabled space, permit holders bay (resident, business or visitor’s), paid for parking space or yellow lines (where no loading restrictions are in place), and any disabled person's allocated parking bay that is not in a residential parking zone (RPZ) and does not have a maximum stay time.

According to the street signage, there was no indication that I had parked in a person's allocated disabled parking bay

The PCN states I was parked in a dedicated disabled bay, as far as I am aware no such criteria of generic parking bay exists. Surely it is either a residents permit bay (in which a blue badge holder is entitled to park) or a specifically allocated (or dedicated) disabled parking bay which would’ve been marked with the number of the permit to which it has been allocated?

This signage (or lack of) along with the placement of the bay, as part of a run of 3 disabled parking bays, led me to believe in good faith that I had parked my car in a correct space.

If the signage had either not had the blue letter P (indicating disabled parking) or had explained that blue badge holders were not entitled to park there I would have parked either on one of the paid for parking bays across the road or failing that on the yellow lines a few feet front of the bay.

I would, therefore, ask you to use your discretion and cancel this PCN, as recognition that this was not a deliberate attempt to illegally park or flout the rules, but a genuine error bought on by my confusion over the signage.

Yours faithfully


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Just trying to live my life without the 'Sheriffs men' threatening to burn my hovel and enslave my family if I don't pay some ridiculous made up tax.
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The Miser
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:07
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Whoops
In paragraph 5 please substitute 'conscientious' for contentious (damned spell check) or else it gives the letter a whole different meaning ohmy.gif


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Just trying to live my life without the 'Sheriffs men' threatening to burn my hovel and enslave my family if I don't pay some ridiculous made up tax.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:18
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Blue letter P indicates parking, not disabled parking.
Apart from that (and contentious) reads okay.
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The Miser
post Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 09:29
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The Letter was sent, now awaiting the reply which I shall post here.


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Just trying to live my life without the 'Sheriffs men' threatening to burn my hovel and enslave my family if I don't pay some ridiculous made up tax.
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Neil B
post Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 23:22
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We've seen quite a lot of these.
Won some but not all.

Just for info.

iirc they do have DfT authorisation.

and to correct Miser; they are not dedicated to individuals. They are for any holders of 'disabled resident permits' that
live in the same zone.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 19:30) *
then the use of the Disabled road marking is not permitted with a permit bay,

Might be the strongest point, especially directly adjacent the other two.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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The Miser
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 18:33
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OK:

It's been a long (for us, but probably very quickly for the council;) time coming but here, at last, is their reply, and it seems common sense has won out, whilst still advising the wife that she had committed an offence, they have agreed to waive the penalty charge biggrin.gif .

I have attached a copy of the letter.

Now awaiting the reply for 2 more challenged Newham PCNs you can see how these are progressing in my thread

"Newham again why have they issued this PCN?, Can anyone see why this PCN was issued, I cant"


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Just trying to live my life without the 'Sheriffs men' threatening to burn my hovel and enslave my family if I don't pay some ridiculous made up tax.
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