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66mph in a 40mph (M20 variable speed camera), Speeding!
Mr_Bo_Jangles
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:41
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Hi all,

I was caught by a fixed speed camera on 16th April 2018 at 22:26 travelling on the M20 heading coast bound between J6 and J7, I got snapped at 69mph in a 40mph.

Now just to clarify, weather conditions were great and the motorway was fairly quiet, well as quiet as the M20 ever has been anytime I've travelled on it. I had been travelling in a hire car that I pick up from Gatwick as I commute weekly from Scotland to work in Kent.

Usual stuff happened, the Single justice procedure notice was issued to me withing their allocated time slots. This was only after being issued to the car rental company as you'd imagine. On the SJPN it states I was doing 69mph.

After pleading guilty and accepting my fate I received another letter telling me that the case went ahead on the 04/02/19 and I was being fined £811 and having 6 points endorsed on my license! As you can imagine I was livid as i'd wanted to plead my case and put forward at mitigations that I have. Anyway, long story short, the case has now been reopened due to my complaints about an unfair trial (so to speak).

I asked to be sent everything from my case file and upon scrutiny I found that the SJPN had 69mph on it whilst the 'Memorandum of an entry entered in the register of the North Kent Magistrates Court LJA:1966' has me down as being clocked at 66mph. Would/could this be used to try and get off with it or am I just grasping as straws?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Apologies in advance for and typo's / spelling mistakes as I'm writing this in a rush on my mobile!
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post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:41
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southpaw82
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:54
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QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:41) *
Usual stuff happened, the Single justice procedure notice was issued to me withing their allocated time slots. This was only after being issued to the car rental company as you'd imagine. On the SJPN it states I was doing 69mph.


What was your response to the SJPN?

QUOTE
am I just grasping as straws?

Yes.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 22:15
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Pleading guilty to a SJPN will in many cases just result in a sentence being dolled out, that's the whole point of the SJPN process. If you wanted to present a mitigation you should have requested a personal court hearing.

Have you any mitigation, often what people think of as mitigation is actually aggravation.
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Jlc
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 22:29
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That excess is band C. So 6 points is guidance along with a fine of a week's earnings, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

Did you submit a MC100?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 03:35
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Did you read the notes on the SJPN explaining how you could request a court hearing if you wanted one?

The Process has gone ahead exactly as it should if you didn't request a court hearing, you could also (as explained on the SJPN) have submitted written mitigation.

I suspect its be reopened under S142 in the interests of Justice as a courtesy, not because anything unfair happened. But other than you indicating you were guilty you haven't said whether you sent mitigation or asked for a hearing, sometimes mistakes happening in processing written responses.

What mitigation do you actually have?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 03:36


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Mr_Bo_Jangles
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:09
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I plead guilty by ticking the 'Guilty I want to come to court' box but they had obviously went ahead with the case regardless of what i'd ticked! I received the Notice of endorsement through the post a couple of days ago. As you can imagine i was expecting a date to attend court and not the actual outcome! I called them to explain and they'd said that it must have been misread as she could clearly see that I'd ticked the 'Guilty I want to come to court' box and she would apply to have my case reopened. After a day or so i got email confrimation stating that my case had been reopened and I must attend court on the 1st March.

Now having collated all this information and reviewing it i've noticed that there are quite a few discrepencies. From the SJPN stating i was caught at 69mph and the memorandum stating 66mph. Now i understand this is human error and everyone is prone to it and it doesn't neccessarily change the fact that i was speeding but have you ever saw cases dropped for such things?

Some of the mitigations i listed were:

1. I commute weekly to Kent for work from Ayrshire, Scotland and i need my car to get back and forth to Glasgow Airport.

2. Im required to collect a hire car at LGW to get back and forth to Kent and if i have 6 or more points it'll have seriously affect my abillity to rent as most companies won't touch anyone with over 6 points (I have a CU30 already).

3. I don't have any previous speeding convictions.

4. Road conditions were great.

5. It was late at night and the roads were fairly empty.

6. My employer won't take too kindly to a change in Travel arrangements as it'll affect my work hours as I'd need to make alternative modes of transport and I'd be somewhat restricted by their timetables (Train, Bus etc.).

7. I'm self-employed therefore in my line of work i'm easily replaced should i be a burden to my employer through my travel arrangements.

8. I came down to Kent for career progression and i don't want to jepordise that by not being able to get here. (Romney Marsh is very isolated and certain buses etc. only run past here at set times, making it rather challenging to be in on time.)

I have never been in this position before so my experience is lacking! A friend of mine only pointed me towards this page last week otherwise I'd have been here sooner seeking advice.

As you've probably heard all the excuses before I'll save you from hearing anymore of mine but I'd ask if you would be so kind to offer up any tips, tricks or guidance to have the court look at it in my favour and from the point of view that it'll be detremental to my career with either 6 points or a ban.

Have you ever heard of anyone escaping with less that 6 points?

As always, your help/guidance is very much appreciated.






Just to clarify:

1. I did ask to attend court on the Single Justice Procedure Notice.
2. I did also submit a mitigation letter.

This post has been edited by Mr_Bo_Jangles: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:17
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666
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:46
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1 is irrelevant.

4 and 5 are saying that it's OK to ignore the speed limit. That makes things worse, not better.

The others are all variants on a single theme - the risk to your job. The likely response will be to ask why - if it's so important to you - did you choose to speed?
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Mr_Bo_Jangles
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:54
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:46) *
1 is irrelevant.

4 and 5 are saying that it's OK to ignore the speed limit. That makes things worse, not better.

The others are all variants on a single theme - the risk to your job. The likely response will be to ask why - if it's so important to you - did you choose to speed?


I was totally unaware i had even entered a 40mph restriction, i wasn't intentionally speeding. For whatever reason i missed the sign and continued unawares!

I'm on here as I've been told everyones very helpful and willing to provide guidance or at least share their personal experiences. I don't need salt rubbed on the wound, I understand that I've broken the law!
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peterguk
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:16
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QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:09) *
I did also submit a mitigation letter.

None of what you mentioned in your post would have changed the penalty you received.


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666
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:39
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QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:54) *
QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:46) *
1 is irrelevant.

4 and 5 are saying that it's OK to ignore the speed limit. That makes things worse, not better.

The others are all variants on a single theme - the risk to your job. The likely response will be to ask why - if it's so important to you - did you choose to speed?


I was totally unaware i had even entered a 40mph restriction, i wasn't intentionally speeding. For whatever reason i missed the sign and continued unawares!

I'm on here as I've been told everyones very helpful and willing to provide guidance or at least share their personal experiences. I don't need salt rubbed on the wound, I understand that I've broken the law!


As Baggieboy said in post #3, "... often what people think of as mitigation is actually aggravation."

I don't think anyone here has tried to rub salt in the wound: rather, trying to avoid your making things worse. It's better to be asked tricky questions on here than be surprised by them in court!

This post has been edited by 666: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:41
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Darkatmosphere
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:50
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I don't see a Hardship plea, I don't see a mitigating circumstance either, infact 4,5 6,7,8 in the OP's mitigation could lead to some very difficult to answer questions of the OP come court hearing.

QUOTE
1. I commute weekly to Kent for work from Ayrshire, Scotland and i need my car to get back and forth to Glasgow Airport.

2. Im required to collect a hire car at LGW to get back and forth to Kent and if i have 6 or more points it'll have seriously affect my abillity to rent as most companies won't touch anyone with over 6 points (I have a CU30 already).

3. I don't have any previous speeding convictions.

4. Road conditions were great.

5. It was late at night and the roads were fairly empty.

6. My employer won't take too kindly to a change in Travel arrangements as it'll affect my work hours as I'd need to make alternative modes of transport and I'd be somewhat restricted by their timetables (Train, Bus etc.).

7. I'm self-employed therefore in my line of work i'm easily replaced should i be a burden to my employer through my travel arrangements.

8. I came down to Kent for career progression and i don't want to jepordise that by not being able to get here. (Romney Marsh is very isolated and certain buses etc. only run past here at set times, making it rather challenging to be in on time.)


1. A Magistrate bench will ask and look into what busses lead to Glasgow AP from your address, it would reasonable to assume, that there would be a shuttle service that run early enough to connect you to your flight to the south, and then a bus service to your place of contact.

2. No one is required to collect a hire car, there would be alternatives you're just inconvenienced.

3. But you do have an endorsement.

4. The road condition may have been brilliant but your speed is still a risk and still against the law and has no relevance.

5. Again being late in the night increased your risk due to reduced visibility of darkness combined with .4 it seems as though you're justified in your mind that the allegations are not serious enough to warrant action, magistrate will frown on it.

6. Your employer? thought you were self employed? confusing and vague will only cause a magistrate to probe more deeper and think at this stage the mag's having the wool pulled over their eyes.

7. there you go, self employed and employed by a company doesn't go hand in hand, either your self employed and this company has rendered your service, or your not self employed and you have a contract of employment, you can't have both as they conflict with eachother. I'm starting think your throwing everything at this for sympathy.

8.Again the location of only have one bus per hour or set times is an inconvenience to you and not exceptional, you have to think past this for any kind of EH.

Don't take this as criticizing you, this is not my intention but to educate you on the higher burden of you that the court expects you to produce. You have both mixed Exceptional hardship with mitigating circumstances and turned it into a statement of begging, its going to prompt the magistrates to ask some really difficult questions of you especially on your point of employment status.
As the saying goes, once in a hole, stop digging, and this hand the shovel to the magistrate to bury you with, and I don't mean that in a nasty way I mean it in a way that should direct you to a more different outlook and burden to place on yourself when looking for either a Mitigating circumstance or are you looking for a EH plea? The forum will help guide you, if you are more clear on what you want? Do you want help in putting together an EH plea, as you don't have a Mitigating Circumstance that I can see.

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:53


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Mr_Bo_Jangles
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:17
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:50) *
Don't take this as criticizing you, this is not my intention but to educate you on the higher burden of you that the court expects you to produce. You have both mixed Exceptional hardship with mitigating circumstances and turned it into a statement of begging, its going to prompt the magistrates to ask some really difficult questions of you especially on your point of employment status.
As the saying goes, once in a hole, stop digging, and this hand the shovel to the magistrate to bury you with, and I don't mean that in a nasty way I mean it in a way that should direct you to a more different outlook and burden to place on yourself when looking for either a Mitigating circumstance or are you looking for a EH plea? The forum will help guide you, if you are more clear on what you want? Do you want help in putting together an EH plea, as you don't have a Mitigating Circumstance that I can see.


Firstly, I'd like to say thanks for taking the time to respond and yes i would like help putting together an EH plea if you'd be so kind!

And just to clarify, I'm self-employed and another company has rendered my services.
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peterguk
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:22
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QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:17) *
i would like help putting together an EH plea if you'd be so kind!


I'm confused. I thought you had a total of 6 points on your DL including this conviction.

You can't make a EH plea if you're only on 6 points.


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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:25
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QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:17) *
Firstly, I'd like to say thanks for taking the time to respond and yes i would like help putting together an EH plea if you'd be so kind!

Exceptional hardship pleas are only appropriate for totting bans. i.e. reaching 12 or more points within a 3 year period. That's not to say the magistrates would not be sympathetic to your situation but unless a ban is considered (and through the SJPN process it was not) I'm not sure many of your points have any bearing.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:28
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An EH plea is only relevant to a totting ban, not either points or a ban for a single offence.

So a simple administrative oversight, where you get humans human error can occur, could work in your favour as you’ll now be able to present some actual mitigation that could slightly (only slightly) reduce your penalty. As others have said that’s one of the worse mitigation letters you could submit.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:39
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The Sentencing Council guidelines have the following as mitigation factors:

Factors reducing seriousness or reflecting personal mitigation
- No previous convictions or no relevant/recent convictions
- Good character and/or exemplary conduct
- Genuine emergency established

Since you can't get less than 6 points as it is Band C offence, then realistically I can't see reopening the case having any benefit.
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Logician
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:51
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:22) *
QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:17) *
i would like help putting together an EH plea if you'd be so kind!
I'm confused. I thought you had a total of 6 points on your DL including this conviction. You can't make a EH plea if you're only on 6 points.


No, he has a CU30 with 3 points for defective tyres, so this conviction will bring him up to 9 points. An EH plea is still not relevant of course, that only applies if he gets 12 or more points and is facing a 6 months disqualification.

But Mr Bo Jangles, you must appreciate that in court 6 points are almost certain, 5 points would be very lenient and there is no way you are going to get as little as 3 points, which you would need to keep your points to 6 or below. 65 mph would actually have resulted in all probability in a fixed penalty of only 3 points, and achieved your aim, you may think you could argue that an additional 1 mph should not have such a large impact, but that will cut no ice at all with the court, that is just the way the system works. You really need to resign yourself to having 9 points until the CU30 runs out.

QUOTE
I was totally unaware i had even entered a 40mph restriction, i wasn't intentionally speeding. For whatever reason i missed the sign and continued unawares!


Speeding, like most traffic offences, is a strict liability offence, your intention is quite irrelevant, you were speeding and that is that. Again, your mitigation leads to the likelihood of questions, you were on a motorway with a 40mph limit, and that must mean there were roadworks, possibly a contraflow, how could you miss road works, and roadworks must mean a reduced limit.

I think you would have been better to have accepted the single justice procedure outcome, but you are where you are. I really think you have no mitigation and you are best just to throw yourself on the mercy of the court with something like:

I have no excuse to offer for my speed on this occasion, it can only have been an unfortunate real lapse of concentration for which I can only apologise. Fortunately there was nothing to aggravate the offence, road conditions were good and as it was late at night, traffic was very light. I hope you will feel able to deal with the matter by giving me points, which I assure you will act as a continuing reminder to concentrate fully on my driving at all times.



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Mr_Bo_Jangles
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:54
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:22) *
QUOTE (Mr_Bo_Jangles @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:17) *
i would like help putting together an EH plea if you'd be so kind!


I'm confused. I thought you had a total of 6 points on your DL including this conviction.

You can't make a EH plea if you're only on 6 points.


Me too! I'd been informed that I'd received 6 points and a £811 fine but after challenging the fact that I hadn't been sent a court date they reopened the case and told me to disregard that letter for the time being. So at present i have a CU30 endorsement on my license only.
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 18:20
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Alternatively make it as aggravating as possible and push them towards a short ban, that's the only way of avoiding 6 points methinks. However having a ban is probably not going to make you less attractive to car hirers.
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Mr_Bo_Jangles
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 19:26
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Thanks for all the feedback/guidance, I guess I'll just turn up and take what's given!
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