PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

pcn95 in council car park
AgnusCastus
post Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 19:07
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 2 Feb 2019
Member No.: 102,253



Thanks for allowing me to join smile.gif I have two questions relating to this PCN95 please?

We were travelling in our motorhome this week when the bad weather started. We stopped off to explore a market town in the Scarborough Council jurisdiction and parked in a P&D car park, paying for a ticket until 6pm, when the charges ended (they started again at 8am). The sign stated that "cooking, sleeping and camping" were not allowed.

After a shopping trip around the town, the freezing fog had worsened and we decided it would be foolish to try to continue our long journey north in such conditions. Our decision was backed up by Yellow Warning texts about the low temperatures (-6C) and ice expected on roads. We decided that the best place to stay overnight despite the "no sleeping notice" would be where we were, not knowing the area. We paid for our parking until 11am the next morning, by which time we hoped the temperatures and ice would be less of a problem. When we opened the blinds the next morning we were greeted by thick frost and a PCN dry.gif

Q1. Do you think we would have any chance of an appeal, given the terrible weather and the warnings, or is it best just to pay the reduced fine? It's a £50 fine, reduced to £25, so cheaper than a hotel would have been.

Q2. This question is more out of curiosity, but the PCN states that we were "Parked in a place for a purpose other than the designated purpose of the parking place". It isn't specifically saying that we were sleeping in the vehicle, but I'm assuming that was the reason. Perhaps it was for something else, but I can't think what, as we didn't cook or camp.
The PCN was stuck on our windscreen at 6.37am, the officer having observed the vehicle since 6.36am. There are photographs of our motorhome, with the time and date, etc, on the council website but I am wondering how they could prove we were in the van, let alone sleeping in it, if indeed that is the reason for the fine, or are they just assuming we were in there.
We had the heating on (which led to condensation on the windscreen) and all blinds drawn, but had we stayed in a hotel, we would have done this anyway to stop the water freezing and the boiler anti-frost valve dumping water all over the car park, not to forget the dog would have had to sleep in the motorhome. ohmy.gif
There was a CCTV camera, so perhaps it monitored when we left and entered the vehicle, but there is no video evidence available. I'm thinking he might have heard snoring, but I would be blaming the dog for that biggrin.gif

Here are the links to the PCN (fingers crossed I've done this correctly):

https://ibb.co/vJfz54Y

https://ibb.co/Nt5MXWZ

This post has been edited by AgnusCastus: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 11:18
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 10)
Advertisement
post Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 19:07
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 20:28
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,736
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



See the advice here then update your thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AgnusCastus
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 22:51
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 2 Feb 2019
Member No.: 102,253



PCN photos added
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 08:42
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



Subject to seeing the PCN, I would find it difficult to see how Scarborough had anything to do with this contravention. Thirsk is in North Yorkshire and Hambleton District Council would have issued the Off Street Order.

BTW the cost of a ticket is nearly worth going into the Three Tuns for an enormous full English breakfast----but I digress.

Order here:- https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...bleton/FI16.pdf

Art 15© looks to be the killer---

15. No person shall, in any parking place:-
(a) except with the permission of any civil enforcement officer or Police Constable drive any
motor vehicle other than for the purpose of leaving it in the parking place in accordance with
the provisions of this Order or for the purpose of departing from the parking place;
(b) wantonly shout or otherwise make any loud noise or use any threatening abusive or
insulting language gesture or behaviour so as to disturb or annoy any person or to put any
person in fear so as to occasion a breach of the peace or whereby a breach of the peace is
likely to be occasioned;
© use it or any part of it for sleeping or camping purposes, consuming alcohol, eating or
cooking purposes, servicing any motor vehicle other than as may be necessary to enable
that motor vehicle to depart or stationing a motorhome thereon for human habitation;

Perhaps the "other than" might allow the human habitation part but I wouldn't risk it.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 08:59
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 09:11
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,324
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



@MMV, see the top of the PCN!

OP, if it was me I would write to Scarborough council, make clear that you are not challenging at this time but intend to do so subject to you carrying out a thorough investigation of the circumstances surrounding the PCN. You would complete these and submit a challenge within the 14-day discount period subject only to the authority responding promptly to the following request for information.

The PCN states:

Details of the Enforcement Authority's policy and approach to challenges can be found at scarborough.gov.uk...

You have found the following:
http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/sites/defaul...rge-Notices.pdf

Would the council please confirm whether this is the full extent of the online information referred to in the PCN and if so please advise when and by which competent decision-making part of the council this was adopted. A reference to a committee report or similar would suffice for this purpose. Alternatively, if this is not the full extent of 'the Enforcement Authority's policy etc' please advise where this might be examined.

Thank you

But the above is because I feel that the arrangement for enforcement is unlawful. This is a bee in my bonnet. You would probably end up at adjudication and only after more exchanges of correspondence.

Others may suggest simpler methods of challenging, or just pay because (let's be honest here) you stayed because you wanted to. You knew the restriction, so where's the defence to this aspect? You deciding that you couldn't make an extended journey in the context of your convenient and wholly subjective assessment of weather on the way is not a defence!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 22:22
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 10:27
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



If the Order I posted is still extant then the enforcement authority is Hambleton District Council.

The PCN states that the enforcement authority for off street is Richmondshire District Council which is clearly incorrect.

Richmondshire might act as agents for all North Yorkshire off street parking but they cannot be the enforcement authority under the TMA 2004.

Schedule 8 Part Two 8(5):-

References in this Part of this Act to the enforcement authority in relation to parking contraventions in a civil enforcement area outside Greater London, are—

(a)in relation to contraventions relating to a parking place—

(i)provided or authorised under section 32(1)(a) or (b) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27), or

(ii)designated by order under section 45 of that Act,

to the authority by whom the parking place was provided, authorised or designated;
(b)in relation to other parking contraventions, to the local authority in whose area the contravention is committed.

The PCN is therefore in my view a nullity.

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AgnusCastus
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 10:41
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 2 Feb 2019
Member No.: 102,253



Thanks for these opinions.

I shall have a good look at your suggestions Mick.

@hcanderson - You may have answered my first question about the weather being a mitigating circumstance and whether it was worth challenging on that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:29
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,487
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



If you challenge within the discount period the discount will be re-offered. Do not miss the deadline.

You have a choice:
Challenge on the technical points HCA and MMV raise
OR Challenge on the technical points + mitigating circumstances
OR
Challenge on mitigating circumstances alone.

If you are going with the middle option challenge first on the technical points (HCA and MMV will help you with these)
Then say something like Even if the above are rejected, I would like to raise in mitigation ...... [weather etc]...... and trust that on this occasion the Council will exercise itsa discretionary power to cancel the PCN.

Remember you are seeking to persuade the person reading your challenge to accept it.

Post your draft challenge here for comment before sending, but dio not miss deadline.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:22
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AgnusCastus
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 17:24
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 2 Feb 2019
Member No.: 102,253



thanks John
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 18:36
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,736
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



I would go for the technical challenge, which to be honest is unanswerable. It's a legal requirement that the PCN show the name of the enforcement authority, there is no way the council can get out of this, see paragraph 1 of the schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007:

A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 or 9A must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—

(a) the date on which the notice is served;
(b) the name of the enforcement authority;


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 19:14
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



The car park Noticeboard refers to the Hambleton Order:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Millgat...33;4d-1.3419365

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 18th November 2019 - 03:46
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.