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NCP ANPR Postal Notice to Keeper Chorleywood Station
Vampgirl
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:50
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Hi everyone, hoping you might be able to advise whether this charge should be paid during the discount period, or if there is something to appeal on?

The registered keeper has just (today) received an ANPR Notice to Keeper from NCP for allegedly parking in Chorleywood LU Station car park. Date of notice is 21st November, date of incident is 16th November.

The driver was picking someone up from the station but the tube train was delayed so they had to wait for a little longer than expected in the car park. I don't know if its relevant, but the driver never left the car. The driver is used to station car parks allowing people to drop off/pick up and not being local to the area didn't think to check the parking signs because they were only waiting for someone, not parking. It was dark, but the driver doesn't recall seeing any signs saying that it isn't permitted to wait for someone in the car park, and there were also other vehicles that were obviously waiting to pick people up too.




Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
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post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:50
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cabbyman
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 18:25
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The key to this will be rail byelaws and, therefore, land ownership.

Are there any signs in the car park that mention byelaws or that you are on TfL land, or similar? Pics of signs would be handy. GSV only shows the entrance sign which doesn't give too many clues!

Ignore the discount period blackmail! You can't discount £0!

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 18:27


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Vampgirl
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 08:22
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Unfortunately its not going to be possible to revisit the location to get photos sad.gif Neither myself, nor the driver, nor the person being picked up are local to the area (Chorleywood was chosen as a mutually convenient station near the M25 to pick someone up before continuing on a journey up the M1) so in terms of time and fuel cost its probably more expedient to just pay the discount. Much as it pains me sad.gif
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Redivi
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 09:06
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Ignoring the Parking Notice is more expedient

As this is railway land, NCP can't recover payment from the registered keeper if it doesn't know who was driving
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mickR
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 09:34
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Does any other member live near chorleywood? wink.gif
Maybe could obtain pics?

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Vampgirl
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 15:25
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Thanks everyone who has tried to help so far - its much appreciated.

QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 09:06) *
As this is railway land, NCP can't recover payment from the registered keeper if it doesn't know who was driving

Do you know that the Chorleywood car park is definitely railway land, or are you assuming that?

QUOTE (mickR @ Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 09:34) *
Does any other member live near chorleywood? wink.gif
Maybe could obtain pics?

If there is anyone local who would be prepared to take photos of the signs then that would be great.


But assuming a decision needs to be made without the benefit of photos of the signage......what is the best course of action? Does the RK ignore the notice? Or do they challenge the notice based on the railway byelaws? And what are the risks/chances of success?
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Vampgirl
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 11:39
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Can anyone advise please? Assuming a decision needs to be made without the benefit of photos of the signage......what is the best course of action?
The RK is getting quite stressed about this and is inclined to pay at the discounted rate to make this go away and I haven't been able to set their mind at rest regarding the chances of beating this.

I did find this completed case that seems similar: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109227 - leaving aside the points about frustration of contract and signage, should the RK keeper appeal using those same arguments? Though that thread mentions there was some question around POPLA and railway byelaws that was being discussed at the time (in 2016) - does anyone know the outcome and whether it changes anything?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
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ostell
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 12:43
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Is this the car park? It certainly looks like a station car park with the Underground Logo style on the sign.

I say wait for the NTK to arrive, presuming this is not a hire car, and see what it says on that and delay everything as long as possible and state that it is not relevant land for keeper liability.
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Vampgirl
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 13:52
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 12:43) *
Is this the car park? It certainly looks like a station car park with the Underground Logo style on the sign.

Yes, that is the car park.

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 12:43) *
I say wait for the NTK to arrive, presuming this is not a hire car, and see what it says on that

No its not a hire car. The NTK has already arrived - see above.

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 12:43) *
state that it is not relevant land for keeper liability.

So you recommend challenging this based on the railway byelaws as per the thread I linked to?
This is the draft appeal (based on what I found on the other thread I linked to):

Dear Sir/Madam

PCN REF: XXXXXXX

With regards to the Postal Notice to Keeper dated 23/11/2018. This is my formal appeal against the ticket. My grounds of appeal are as follows.

1 - No keeper liability exists for the ticket because the site is covered under railway bylaws and as such is not considered relevant land covered by The Protections of Freedom Act 2012.

Please either cancel the charge or provide details for an independent appeal at POPLA

Regards,


Should the part about POPLA be included? Because it seems POPLA has no jurisdiction over railway byelaw cases any more?

And am I correct in saying that the appeal needs to be submitted by close of business on 24th December? Which means forgoing the discounted penalty.

As I mentioned, the RK is getting nervous and doesn't want to risk the full £100 charge so I need to be able to explain the chances of success and whether there are any risks to doing this.
Thanks.
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cabbyman
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 14:20
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POPLA has changed it's stance on byelaws cases and instructed operators to issue appeal codes. This is great because it introduces another stage which will get you closer to the six month timeout.

Appeal so that they receive it close to the deadline. Their response will contain a POPLA code which should also be used close to the deadline, and so on.

NCP don't do court on contractual tickets, having been severely spanked for a sum in the tens of thousands a few years back.

As I said previously, the discount is purely blackmail and nothing to get excited about.


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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 21:39
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I believe that NCP manage their car parks using contract law not Byelaws, even at train station car parks. If so, then the expiry would be 6 years not 6 months?

I believe that, at station car parks managed under contract law, the Beavis ruling may not apply. This is paid for parking, not free parking, and the car park serves the station not a shopping centre. So no commercial justification for charges in excess of a Genuine Pre Estimate of Loss.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 21:41
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cabbyman
post Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 06:57
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They all attempt contract law with the driver, using PoFA to fall back to the RK if the driver is not known.

Byelaw land remains byelaw land regardless of how they are trying to enforce. They may well succeed against a driver in contract but, all the time the driver is unknown, they can't succeed against the RK under PoFA because byelaw land is not relevant land.


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Vampgirl
post Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 15:28
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 14:20) *
POPLA has changed it's stance on byelaws cases and instructed operators to issue appeal codes. This is great because it introduces another stage which will get you closer to the six month timeout.

Appeal so that they receive it close to the deadline. Their response will contain a POPLA code which should also be used close to the deadline, and so on.

- The letter states: 28 days beginning with the day after the date on which this postal notification of parking charge is given
- And at the top of the letter is says Date this notice is given: 23/11/2018
So is my calculation correct that the deadline for appeal is end of the day 22nd December? If yes, then I will tell the RK to submit the appeal online on either Friday 21st or Saturday 22nd.

This appeal has been drafted - does it cover everything that needs to be said?

Dear Sir/Madam,
PCN REF: XXXXXXX
With regards to the Postal Notice to Keeper dated 23/11/2018, this is my formal appeal against the ticket.
My grounds of appeal are as follows:
1 - No keeper liability exists for the ticket because the site is covered under railway bylaws and as such is not considered relevant land covered by The Protections of Freedom Act 2012.
Please either cancel the charge or provide details for an independent appeal at POPLA
Regards,
RK


QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 06:57) *
They all attempt contract law with the driver, using PoFA to fall back to the RK if the driver is not known.

Byelaw land remains byelaw land regardless of how they are trying to enforce. They may well succeed against a driver in contract but, all the time the driver is unknown, they can't succeed against the RK under PoFA because byelaw land is not relevant land.

So basically what you're saying is that so long as the RK doesn't name the driver then there is nothing NCP can do, and they can't force the RK to name the driver either biggrin.gif
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cabbyman
post Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 16:06
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In general terms, yes. But they won't see it in such terms so you may need to put up a bit of a fight.

However, it is CRUCIAL never to reveal the driver's identity except by order of the court.

I would word it:

Dear sirs,

ref pcn xxxx vrn xxxx

I am in receipt of your Notice to Keeper.

Your notice fails to pass liability to me as keeper because of numerous failures under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 including, but not limited to, an attempt to operate on land that is covered by Railway Byelaws and therefore not relevant land in accordance with Sched 4 of the Act. For the avoidance of doubt, as you are well aware, I am not required to name the driver and will not be doing so.

I require you to cancel forthwith or provide me with a POPLA code where I will arrange for you to be instructed to cancel.

Love and kisses.


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Vampgirl
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 09:59
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Thanks cabbyman - I'll make sure the RK understands that the driver must not be revealed.
Your's is a much more strongly worded appeal wink.gif I'll instruct the RK to submit the appeal on 21st or 22nd December and will report back here with the results
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ostell
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 11:09
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So that it ARRIVES on the 21st. Remember the Christmas post delays. And free certificate of posting from a post office
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Vampgirl
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 13:07
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 11:09) *
So that it ARRIVES on the 21st. Remember the Christmas post delays. And free certificate of posting from a post office

It can be submitted online biggrin.gif
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ostell
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 13:13
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OK Do it online BUT get screen prints of the appeal AND the acceptance and save them.
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Vampgirl
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 15:56
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Thanks for the tip!
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Gary Bloke
post Sat, 8 Dec 2018 - 11:26
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Worth noting that the new advice on the POPLA website says that they will expect Notice to Owner letters issued under Byelaws to be delivered by 14 days after the date of the alleged offence (starting from the following day). This mimics the requirements for use of keeper liability under schedule 4 of the POFA. In this case they were within the deadline. If they ever miss this deadline, then appeal on the grounds that the ticket was not correctly issued.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 - 11:34
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