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Kirknewton, Level crossing - failing to stop at red flashing traffic light
snow_uk
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 15:10
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Hi,
Received a notice of intended prosecution for failing to stop at red flashing traffic light signal.

Has anyone here received this offence in this location?

In the fear of actually being hit by a train, I clearly remember driving past the barrier when the light was amber and not red - as the car was already moving , is it acceptable to cross with amber light wig-wag? and can I ask for evidence /appeal?

And if my appeal is not accepted, what is the consequence . Is it fine + 3 points or is there an option to take up some sort of speed type awareness course?

If you can share views it will be very much appreciated. Thanks
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post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 15:10
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ohnoes
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:12
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Crossing on amber is an offence- the statutory defence is that it was unsafe to stop for some reason.

You can ask for 'photos to assist in identifying the driver' at this stage which may give you some stills from the offence- you cannot request evidence unless you intend to plead not guilty at court.

This post has been edited by ohnoes: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:13


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Jlc
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:34
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Amber does mean stop. The statutory exception is a bit more specific about ‘unsafe’. There’s some irony in stating the unsafe bit would be about the train hitting the car - the purpose of the lights are to prevent that.

I presume you were moving towards the crossing when amber illuminated? I presume the wig-wag is the alternating pair of lights? The exception would be if you were too close to the stop line when amber illuminated and you could not stop before the line before red illuminates.

Generally such amber crossing is rarely pursued and it was more likely actually red, contrary to your recollection. Passing at red (that is any part of your vehicle crossing the stop line) makes the offence complete and will be hard to defend.

You can ask for anything but they may not oblige at this stage - although many crossings do have CCTV footage which may back any allegation. There may also be a witness (or 2).

But it sounds like they are only pursing the traffic signal offence (under s36 RTA) rather than careless/dangerous. British Transport Police often issue NIPs with all these offences to cover all eventualities. Crossing well into red has very serious implications, especially if barriers are lowering.

I note this is Scotland so I guess it won’t be BTP pursuing and there are legal specifics around s172 and witness corroboration. You may wish to search for unsigned. Currently it’s at the driver request stage - there’s no formal appeal process. A ‘challenge’ would be at court, or more specifically a defence but the prosecution would have to prove the allegation.

A fixed penalty may be the outcome - no courses for sure.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:45


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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snow_uk
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:13
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
Amber does mean stop. The statutory exception is a bit more specific about ‘unsafe’. There’s some irony in stating the unsafe bit would be about the train hitting the car - the purpose of the lights are to prevent that.

I presume you were moving towards the crossing when amber illuminated? I presume the wig-wag is the alternating pair of lights? The exception would be if you were too close to the stop line when amber illuminated and you could not stop before the line before red illuminates.

Generally such amber crossing is rarely pursued and it was more likely actually red, contrary to your recollection. Passing at red (that is any part of your vehicle crossing the stop line) makes the offence complete and will be hard to defend.

You can ask for anything but they may not oblige at this stage - although many crossings do have CCTV footage which may back any allegation. There may also be a witness (or 2).

But it sounds like they are only pursing the traffic signal offence (under s36 RTA) rather than careless/dangerous. British Transport Police often issue NIPs with all these offences to cover all eventualities. Crossing well into red has very serious implications, especially if barriers are lowering.

I note this is Scotland so I guess it won’t be BTP pursuing and there are legal specifics around s172 and witness corroboration. You may wish to search for unsigned. Currently it’s at the driver request stage - there’s no formal appeal process. A ‘challenge’ would be at court, or more specifically a defence but the prosecution would have to prove the allegation.

A fixed penalty may be the outcome - no courses for sure.


Thanks for the prompt reply.
Btw, the offence is Section 36, road traffic act 1988.
And I definitely recall it was amber and not red when I went past the barrier. I went around again to that spot to observe and the amber lights come on and in like 2 or 3 seconds the red comes on!
And yes it is in Scotland but still from posted from BTP in Glasgow.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:39
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The statutory pause on Amber is 3 plus or minus 0.25 seconds, so it’s hardly a suprise it came on after 3 seconds.

3 seconds at 60 leaves enough distance to stop at even the rather archaic Highway Code braking rate.

You’d be surprised at the number of people who definitely crossed on amber who then get pictures showing they most definitely did not.

Search for and read up on unsigned and then ask any further questions you may have.


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Jlc
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:58
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Yes, the minimum is 3 seconds +/- 0.25s, it can be more. There's guidance for 5 seconds under certain conditions. But this is the same minimum for all traffic lights.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:58


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:49
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QUOTE
And I definitely recall it was amber and not red when I went past the barrier


It may have been amber when you went past but red by the time the back of your car went past.


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snow_uk
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 20:28
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QUOTE (ohnoes @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:12) *
Crossing on amber is an offence- the statutory defence is that it was unsafe to stop for some reason.

You can ask for 'photos to assist in identifying the driver' at this stage which may give you some stills from the offence- you cannot request evidence unless you intend to plead not guilty at court.


Thanks.
I tried calling the number (Glasgow transport police) on the paper they sent to ask for photos but there's no response on that number for the last 4 days!
Do I email or write to them? wondering what the normal procedure really
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Jlc
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 20:29
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There is no 'normal' procedure. I'd try all avenues. (They don't really operate 'customer services')


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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StuartBu
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 00:08
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QUOTE (snow_uk @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 21:28) *
QUOTE (ohnoes @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:12) *
Crossing on amber is an offence- the statutory defence is that it was unsafe to stop for some reason.

You can ask for 'photos to assist in identifying the driver' at this stage which may give you some stills from the offence- you cannot request evidence unless you intend to plead not guilty at court.


Thanks.
I tried calling the number (Glasgow transport police) on the paper they sent to ask for photos but there's no response on that number for the last 4 days!
Do I email or write to them? wondering what the normal procedure really


To be pedantic it is British Transport Police . Dunno if theres any alternative contact details on this page . http://www.btp.police.uk/local_btp_teams/s...nd/glasgow.aspx
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snow_uk
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 08:36
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Hi guys,
as an update for those interested, it was a mobile van that caught this incident! Apparently I was 1.25 seconds in red.
Tolerance is up to 1 second, hence the offence!

Thank you all again, hope I won't need to use this forum again :-)
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The Rookie
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 09:03
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QUOTE (snow_uk @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:10) *
I clearly remember driving past the barrier when the light was amber


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 19:39) *
You’d be surprised at the number of people who definitely crossed on amber who then get pictures showing they most definitely did not.

+1...

I think it's a combination of
1/ People look away from the lights before actually passing
2/ You can't see the lights when you get to them anyway

It could be much worse than 3pts £100 of course, BTP are quite ready to use the harsher penalties by taking people to court though unlikely for your transgression.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 09:08


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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