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Speeding ticket received from Spanish authorities
Zod
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 16:39
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I went to Spain in Feb 2018 and have received (today) a doubled sided A4 paper completely in Spanish which I assume is suggesting I was travelling too fast on their motorway. They want me to pay 300EUR.

The car was a rental vehicle which is how I'm guessing they got my details.

What do I do? Can I ignore?
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post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 16:39
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JordR
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:36
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Probably not if you want to return to Spain, you'll flash up on entry for unpaid fines. Out of interest can you post both sides of the letter omitting any references, personal or vehicle details?

J
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 18:42
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QUOTE (Zod @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:39) *
I went to Spain in Feb 2018 and have received (today) a doubled sided A4 paper completely in Spanish which I assume is suggesting I was travelling too fast on their motorway. They want me to pay 300EUR.

The car was a rental vehicle which is how I'm guessing they got my details.

What do I do? Can I ignore?

The European Convention on Human Rights says, under article 6:

Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;


Therefore the first thing I'd do is write back saying you want a copy in English.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Zod
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 20:50
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If I was to set out a plan to try and appeal this (I have no idea on what grounds), how would I represent myself in court, if that what the procedure is.

The reverse side had images of the vehicle.

I can't find any clear why to pay either,



This post has been edited by Zod: Wed, 16 May 2018 - 06:33
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kernow2015
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 05:41
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You need to remove the above attachment and blank out your address details and reattach.
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Zod
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 06:33
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Sorry uploaded wrong form on my PC.

Corrected
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nigelbb
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 10:11
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QUOTE (Zod @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 21:50) *
If I was to set out a plan to try and appeal this (I have no idea on what grounds), how would I represent myself in court, if that what the procedure is.

The reverse side had images of the vehicle.

I can't find any clear why to pay either,


In the top left hand corner in English it describes payment of the fine on the Internet with a web address.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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baroudeur
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 10:34
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QUOTE (JordR @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:36) *
Probably not if you want to return to Spain, you'll flash upon entry for unpaid fines. Out of interest can you post both sides of the letter omitting any references, personal or vehicle details?

J


There are no border checks within the EU and it's a (Spanish?) rental car.



This post has been edited by baroudeur: Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:04
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baroudeur
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 10:57
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QUOTE (Zod @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 16:39) *
I went to Spain in Feb 2018 and have received (today) a doubled sided A4 paper completely in Spanish which I assume is suggesting I was travelling too fast on their motorway. They want me to pay 300EUR.

The car was a rental vehicle which is how I'm guessing they got my details.

What do I do? Can I ignore?



Whilst there is an agreement within the EU for identifying the registered keepers of vehicles there are no cross-border procedures involving the UK for pursuing motoring penalties. In your case, the hire agreement has provided your details but does it state anything about the hire company paying fines or charging a fee for providing the information? Have you checked your card?

Failure to pay may result in a Debt Collection Company attempting to get you to pay up.

If you return to Spain and get stopped by the police it is possible your name and address may ping an outstanding fine.

Edit: It's reduced to €150 if paid within 20 days.

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:05
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 14:32
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QUOTE (Zod @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 21:50) *
If I was to set out a plan to try and appeal this (I have no idea on what grounds), how would I represent myself in court, if that what the procedure is.

It's been established by the European Court of Human Rights that a fine such as this must be in your own language, therefore a penalty that is notified to you only in a foreign language is null and void and cannot be enforced. Get them to send you a copy in English, this is the first step. The English copy will presumably outline what the appeal procedure is.

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:57) *
Whilst there is an agreement within the EU for identifying the registered keepers of vehicles there are no cross-border procedures involving the UK for pursuing motoring penalties.

This is not true, see the Framework Decision of the Council of the European Union 2005/214/JHA, as amended by Council Framework Decision 2009/299/JHA.

This is implemented in domestic law by section 85 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 and Criminal Procedure Rule 30.10, "Financial penalties imposed in other European Union member States"


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Zod
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 14:46
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:11) *
QUOTE (Zod @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 21:50) *
If I was to set out a plan to try and appeal this (I have no idea on what grounds), how would I represent myself in court, if that what the procedure is.

The reverse side had images of the vehicle.

I can't find any clear why to pay either,


In the top left hand corner in English it describes payment of the fine on the Internet with a web address.


The website is completely in Spanish with no options to translate. Google translate fails in trying to translate the site. There is also no built in language change option for a site that may expect to have international visitors.

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:57) *
Whilst there is an agreement within the EU for identifying the registered keepers of vehicles there are no cross-border procedures involving the UK for pursuing motoring penalties. In your case, the hire agreement has provided your details but does it state anything about the hire company paying fines or charging a fee for providing the information? Have you checked your card?

Failure to pay may result in a Debt Collection Company attempting to get you to pay up.

If you return to Spain and get stopped by the police it is possible your name and address may ping an outstanding fine.

Edit: It's reduced to €150 if paid within 20 days.


The hire company 'Goldcar' has already charged my card during the date of checking the car back in for an unknown reason. I've found through my research that they've done this with many customers as have most other hire companies. I've disputed the charge and was successful. Otherwise, no, there haven't been any charges, and if I find that there are, I'll be disputing those too and their terms and conditions was also in Spanish.

If I have to pay, then I have to pay. I can't wait until Brexit as I may return to Spain before that. But it's not fair that they haven't followed procedure to begin with and will take many weeks before that is resolved.

I'm going to try and find an email address to expedite this.
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 15:46
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QUOTE (Zod @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 15:46) *
If I have to pay, then I have to pay. I can't wait until Brexit as I may return to Spain before that. But it's not fair that they haven't followed procedure to begin with and will take many weeks before that is resolved.

I'm going to try and find an email address to expedite this.

There is no requirement for you to go and get your own translation, or look stuff up on the internet or elsewhere. They must, by law, provide the paperwork in English, end of. Until they serve you paperwork in English, you don't have to pay anything.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Zod
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 15:54
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QUOTE
There is no requirement for you to go and get your own translation, or look stuff up on the internet or elsewhere. They must, by law, provide the paperwork in English, end of. Until they serve you paperwork in English, you don't have to pay anything.


Would I still be required to seek the correct document when the incorrect translation was originally sent to me, that is, emailing or even posting them to request this?
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 16:16
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QUOTE (Zod @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 16:54) *
QUOTE
There is no requirement for you to go and get your own translation, or look stuff up on the internet or elsewhere. They must, by law, provide the paperwork in English, end of. Until they serve you paperwork in English, you don't have to pay anything.


Would I still be required to seek the correct document when the incorrect translation was originally sent to me, that is, emailing or even posting them to request this?

That's a tactical question which depends by and large on what you think the Spanish will do next if you ignore them. They might do nothing. They might send you a bunch of scary letters. They might use the appropriate EU mechanism to enforce the fine. If they try and enforce the fine through you local Magistrates' Court, you can contest it on the ground that you were not informed of your rights to contest the original fine or of the relevant time limits (This is a statutory ground for the Magistrates' Court to refuse to enforce the fine). The Spanish might then send you a new fine in English, and at that point you'd need to decide what to do next (depending on the delay there's an argument to be made that the delay makes enforcement unfair and a breach of your right to a hearing within "a reasonable time" as defined by Article 6), but the fine would still not have increased at that point as you cannot be prejudiced by the fact that they've sent you a fine in a language you cannot understand.

If you ask for a copy in English, they might give up and not reply, you then having nothing more to worry about.

If you ask for a copy in English and they send you one, you may well not have any legitimate means of avoiding liability.

Of course, if you're ever stopped in Spain by the Spanish police (ether at the airport or at the roadside) then all bets are off.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Zod
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 22:28
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I think I'm going to try and make contact with them this week and request an English copy. It's going to be a real task to try and translate their website to even get to an email address, if they even have one.
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baroudeur
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:06
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QUOTE (Zod @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 23:28) *
I think I'm going to try and make contact with them this week and request an English copy. It's going to be a real task to try and translate their website to even get to an email address, if they even have one.



Even if you get a copy in English do you intend to dispute the offence and, if so, how? If you do not, do nothing and see what happens. Despite cp8759's reference to various acts relating to liability there do not appear to have been any successful attempts at recovery of outstanding penalties by foreign authorities reported.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:47
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:06) *
there do not appear to have been any successful attempts at recovery of outstanding penalties by foreign authorities reported.

There certainly have been, while we've not had any for a while we have had them on here, and that was successful despite him never being communicated to in English and challenging the validity on that basis.


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baroudeur
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 15:32) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:57) *
Whilst there is an agreement within the EU for identifying the registered keepers of vehicles there are no cross-border procedures involving the UK for pursuing motoring penalties.


This is not true, see the Framework Decision of the Council of the European Union 2005/214/JHA, as amended by Council Framework Decision 2009/299/JHA.

This is implemented in domestic law by section 85 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 and Criminal Procedure Rule 30.10, "Financial penalties imposed in other European Union member States"


This link is a precis of the legislation. Cross border fines

The general advice, so far, on this forum has been to ignore as no attempts at recovery in the UK appear to have been reported other than a few letters from 'debt recovery' companies.

It is interesting than some EU countries have recently created specific cross border agreements for recovering motoring penalties which seems to indicate that any other legislation lacks incentive for such action. There are a few countries to which return visits have the unlikely possibility of outstanding debts being collected.
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Zod
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 15:16
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:06) *
QUOTE (Zod @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 23:28) *
I think I'm going to try and make contact with them this week and request an English copy. It's going to be a real task to try and translate their website to even get to an email address, if they even have one.



Even if you get a copy in English do you intend to dispute the offence and, if so, how? If you do not, do nothing and see what happens. Despite cp8759's reference to various acts relating to liability there do not appear to have been any successful attempts at recovery of outstanding penalties by foreign authorities reported.



I do not know what I can do to dispute the offence. I don't know the law in the country. Not doing anything may esclate the matter, either financially (it already has 300EUR on the letter which is ridiculous), or I will face some kind of repercussions when going to Spain again, which I certainly intend to do. It's a risk, but I'll have to make that call depending on how they respond to my request for an English version, which I'm hoping they ignore so at least I have grounds to show the debt collectors that I made an effort to get a valid copy, but they did no comply.

Regarding your speculation on enforcement of outstanding debts, unless I can see some valid proof of this, I don't think anyone in my position will take the risk. Although, I have read that the UKs courts won't honour any hearings, that doesn't stop enforcement agents getting warrants from the Northampton bulking centre to wave at me and bother me at my doorstep.

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 12:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 15:32) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 11:57) *
Whilst there is an agreement within the EU for identifying the registered keepers of vehicles there are no cross-border procedures involving the UK for pursuing motoring penalties.


This is not true, see the Framework Decision of the Council of the European Union 2005/214/JHA, as amended by Council Framework Decision 2009/299/JHA.

This is implemented in domestic law by section 85 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 and Criminal Procedure Rule 30.10, "Financial penalties imposed in other European Union member States"


This link is a precis of the legislation. Cross border fines

The general advice, so far, on this forum has been to ignore as no attempts at recovery in the UK appear to have been reported other than a few letters from 'debt recovery' companies.

.... There are a few countries to which return visits have the unlikely possibility of outstanding debts being collected.


What data did you use to make this assertion?
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 15:31
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QUOTE (Zod @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 16:16) *
Regarding your speculation on enforcement of outstanding debts, unless I can see some valid proof of this, I don't think anyone in my position will take the risk. Although, I have read that the UKs courts won't honour any hearings, that doesn't stop enforcement agents getting warrants from the Northampton bulking centre to wave at me and bother me at my doorstep.

On that point you're completely wrong. This is a criminal matter, and a fine cannot be enforced as a civil debt. Think about it this way: if you don't pay a speeding fine in the UK, the police don't sue you via the Northampton bulking centre and then send the bailiffs round.

The only way this can be enforced in the UK is via the Magistrates Courts. Although a mechanism for them to do this does exist, the likelihood of them actually bothering is anyone's guess.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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