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Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty
Brightsea2018
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:31
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Have received a notice 5th Feb after being pulled over 22nd December, on Danson Underpass, a dual carriageway, and I had a vehicle to the left of me, which had a car in front and I was in the right hand lane following another car.

Officer with radar one side of underpass and another officer the other side, which stopped all four vehicles to pull me over. So basically he had to walk across the vehicles to wave me in. Said I was speeding which I disputed at the time having just left a roundabout and with another approaching and following cars. I wasn't shown the radar gun, and the officer that clocked it, after having pulled over walked up to his colleague handed the gun to him but then proceeded to walk off when I was disputing, almost with embarrassment.

The officer took my name and address and said I may or may not hear anything as new process in place.

The conditional offer does not specify the speed I was alleged to be doing, and I dispute and maintain I was not speeding over 30mph as not even out of 3rd gear. Officier said I was apparently doing 46mph!!

I have read the Chief Association of Chief Police Officers guidance on Radar that says

The only enforcement situation should be when one vehicle is isolated in the field of view of the radar device and the operator.
(b) The device should be pointed directly at the approaching target vehicle, parallel to the roadway, eliminating any significant up or down tilt.

Radar speed meters are designed to measure the speed of one vehicle at a time. Should there be more than one vehicle present in the radar field of view it is possible for the device to detect two different signals and alternately display different speeds as described in 9.2(e), in which case the check MUST be aborted.
With vehicles of similar size within the range of the radar, the meter may read the nearer vehicle, but not necessarily, since the reflected signal from a vehicle is very complex and fluctuates rapidly as the view of the vehicle changes slightly. AN OPERATOR MUST NOT MEASURE AND MAKE DETECTIONS FOR PROSECUTION WHEN MORE THAN ONE VEHICLE IS WITHIN THE RADAR DETECTION RANGE.


I believe based on this and I had a witness in the car with me, that I should contest the matter in court, but should I write back presenting my evidence to the Met Police so that they can see why I am disputing on the view that they will perhaps not decide to proceed to court?

Any advice appreciated.

This post has been edited by Brightsea2018: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:36
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post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:31
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Jlc
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:37
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I doubt it was a RADAR device. (More likely a laser-based device)

The conditional offer won't say the speed but it's a way of disposing of the matter without a court hearing.

Should you lose at court then you will also pick up the prosecution costs - listed at £620 for a contested trial, the fine is also income related (1 week relevant earnings). That (alleged) excess is 4-6 points, 5 likely. (Compared with 3 on the CoFP)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 08:52


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Brightsea2018
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 08:33
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What is fundamentally the difference between a radar and laser-based device?

How I interpret the reply, despite what is written in the Chief Association of Police officers guide, is too pretty much opt for the £100 and 3 points, even though I know I wasn't speeding and surrounded by 3 other cars.

However I do really appreciate you stating the costs should I lose.

Ummmmm
dry.gif

Thank you.
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 08:38
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A RADAR device uses a wide beam and so could get a return signal from several co-located vehicles at the same time. A LASER device uses a narrow beam that would be able to target a single vehicle if used correctly.
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Jlc
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 08:57
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As noted there's a big difference between RADAR and LIDAR (Laser). It would be ideal if you knew the type of device they were using but it's unlikely you'll get that unless you opt for court (or saw it at the time).

I'm not suggesting you simply pay the fixed penalty but if you went with your current guidance (not law) then you would almost certainly lose badly.

Conversely, if you know you were speeding (even by not as much as quoted) then accepting the fixed penalty is probably pragmatic and has a known (fixed) outcome.

Otherwise, defending the allegation has risk as noted. One would hope the officer could tell the difference between 30mph and 46mph but you would have to show the officer was mistaken (not lying) or the device was not operating or operated correctly (which can be difficult in reality).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Mayhem007
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 10:35
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3 choices

Guilty, not guilty or newtons trial.

If you go for the latter 2, I would request attendance of both officers in court.


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STAND UP FOR YOURSELF OR YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING

Ultracrepadarion - A person who offers an opinion on a subject they know nothing about.
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Jlc
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 10:47
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Generally a Newton Hearing won't be appropriate for an 'exact' speed measurement device.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NorthSouth
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:04
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Just to clarify for the OP, a newton hearing is where you plead guilty, but you contest some of the detail ("I was speeding, but was only doing 34mph, not 46mph") but given that you have been given the offer of a fixed penalty, there is nothing to gain from doing that. So you really only have 2 options.
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Jlc
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:17
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Newton Hearings would normally be applicable to more manual speed detection methods, e.g. a follow check/speedo.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:17


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Brightsea2018
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:20
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thank you all very much - this has been really invaluable and helpful I've certainly learnt a lot from investigating further and will be sure if ever this was to happen again be more vigilant and ask to see the speed, find out exactly what device it is etc etc.

Based on the responses and despite the fact that it doesn't look as if I will have my day of justice, to which I feel quite peed off, reluctantly accepting the FPN and fine would be the best outcome, I simply can't afford to take the risk.

Best C
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Colin_S
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:30
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I know the stretch of road in question very well and it is very easy to unwittingly speed along it. It's a short stretch of dual carriageway with a nice downhill run in and in the middle of a sea of busy urban roads. The Police regularly set up speed checks here.
OP, were you matching the speed of the other 3 cars or did you catch up with them?

GSV here The police generally wait at the other side of the underpass where the road bears right.

QUOTE (Colin_S @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:26) *
The police generally wait at the other side of the underpass where the road bears right.


Often enough for GSV to catch them at it biggrin.gif
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Brightsea2018
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:59
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The car in front was about 8 ft ahead of me, I was just changing out of third gear to fourth, my audi is quite slow off the mark compared to previous vehicles, and no just normal Friday afternoon following traffic, and didn't speed up to the car in front, I too know the area from old so aware of another approaching roundabout.

In this situation there was a copper one side of the underpass who had the laser and I was stopped the other side by another one waiting. The one with the laser then walked under the underpass and gave it to his colleague and then walked off, hence why I was completely taken a back as not convinced they had the right car!

Either way from the feedback difficult still sounds like I wouldn't have a case so thank you.



This post has been edited by Brightsea2018: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 14:02
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