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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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My daughters boyfriend is a private hire driver with a settle car not registered in his name. In October last year he must have been caught on camera dropping someone at Manchester Airport, he was doing 70 when it had been restricted to 50. In November he received a letter saying because he didn’t give the information of who was driving he had been given 6 points. He called up the court to ask what was it about as he hadn’t had a letter and was told to do a statutory declaration and was given a date. Just before the date to do this he received a summons on referral for this month to attend a court where the speeding had happened.

The court date was yesterday and he forgot about it and did not attend, he was convinced it was 16th and only realised after my daughter told him to check (got the letter 3 mthis ago, I know, no excuse)

As soon as he realised he called the court and was told he had been disqualified for 6mths, prior to this his licence was clean.

I am presuming they doubled the initial 3 points to 6 then 6 for not informing them. The thing is that the keeper of the car (taxi firm) must have provided driver details otherwise how would they have got his address. He is totally distraught as he has never had any dealings with the courts so he was totally naive to what was going on.

He has not only lost his licence but also his job if he doesn’t get this sorted, he really doesn’t know what to do , so I’m hoping someone can offer some advice.

Thanks
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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 13:23
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Hi, she followed it up in an email, I will copy below because I am probably not explaining it very well

Dear Mr ????

Your appeal to ???? Crown Court from ???? Magistrates’ states two offences, Fail to stop road traffic collision dated 15.7.17 and Fail to give information on 24.10.17. There is no trace of an offence on 15.7.17 for fail to stop and though the judge has confirmed he will deal with this, it is not possible as there is no trace of this.

HHJ ????? QC has granted leave to appeal out of time for the offence of Fail to give information on 24.10.17 against sentence only as no valid reason for extending time has been put forward. You were disqualified for 6 months for this offence.

Please confirm that you wish to proceed with your appeal against sentence for the offence of Fail to give information on the 24.10.17 or alternatively provide valid reasons for appealing out of time against conviction as soon as possible. Once this information is received it will be placed before HHJ ???? QC for his consideration.

Regards
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southpaw82
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 17:21
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Forgive me for not reading the whole thread again but was he not aware of the proceedings? If not, why is this not being dealt with by way of statutory declaration rather than an appeal?


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The Rookie
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 17:34
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In summary, he found out about the first conviction, was setup to do an SD, then got the paperwork with a court date for the second one so didn’t bother to do the SD for the first, then missed the court date for the second one. So the SD request for the first case he is way out of time due to the defendant’s own inactivity and he has no basis for a second SD as he was aware of the case.

This is pretty much as I feared would be the case from the first post.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 17:50
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Poor badmin - not sure what results he’s expecting if he gets 12 points again.


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 18:25
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 17:34) *
In summary, he found out about the first conviction, was setup to do an SD, then got the paperwork with a court date for the second one so didn’t bother to do the SD for the first, then missed the court date for the second one. So the SD request for the first case he is way out of time due to the defendant’s own inactivity and he has no basis for a second SD as he was aware of the case.

This is pretty much as I feared would be the case from the first post.

Sorry no that is not correct. He got a letter saying he had been given 6 points , he contacted the local magistrates via phone who said a court date had been set so he could no longer do a SD, he thought it was for the one offence as he had received nothing about the second offence which now adds up as there is no actual record of it. Granted he did put it in his phone for the 16th instead of the 6th and missed the court date which because there were two offences resulted in a disqualification.

Can anyone explain how he has been convicted of failing to identify a driver for an offence that isn’t registered.

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cp8759
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 18:44
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 18:25) *
Can anyone explain how he has been convicted of failing to identify a driver for an offence that isn’t registered.

Can you explain what you mean by "an offence that isn’t registered"?


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 18:57
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 13:23) *
Hi, she followed it up in an email, I will copy below because I am probably not explaining it very well

Dear Mr ????

Your appeal to ???? Crown Court from ???? Magistrates’ states two offences, Fail to stop road traffic collision dated 15.7.17 and Fail to give information on 24.10.17. There is no trace of an offence on 15.7.17 for fail to stop and though the judge has confirmed he will deal with this, it is not possible as there is no trace of this.

HHJ ????? QC has granted leave to appeal out of time for the offence of Fail to give information on 24.10.17 against sentence only as no valid reason for extending time has been put forward. You were disqualified for 6 months for this offence.

Please confirm that you wish to proceed with your appeal against sentence for the offence of Fail to give information on the 24.10.17 or alternatively provide valid reasons for appealing out of time against conviction as soon as possible. Once this information is received it will be placed before HHJ ???? QC for his consideration.

Regards


Thanks everyone for your in put so far, I feel this gets more complicated by the day 😧

This email above is from the Crown court . They have confirmed on the phone and via email there is no trace of the offence , fail to stop 15/07/17 😳 She said she didn’t know how the judge could deal with something there is no record of ?

As Warrington magistrates have now said they will take a SD for the speeding offence as he didn’t get any paperwork relating to this (he only got notification of 6 points for the failure to provide identity) can he plead guilty to speeding, what does his SD need to say ?
Sorry If I am asking stupid and obvious questions 🙈
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The Rookie
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:02
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 17:34) *
In summary, he found out about the first conviction, was setup to do an SD, then got the paperwork with a court date for the second one so didn’t bother to do the SD for the first, then missed the court date for the second one. So the SD request for the first case he is way out of time due to the defendant’s own inactivity and he has no basis for a second SD as he was aware of the case.

This is pretty much as I feared would be the case from the first post.

Sorry no that is not correct. He got a letter saying he had been given 6 points , he contacted the local magistrates via phone who said a court date had been set so he could no longer do a SD, he thought it was for the one offence as he had received nothing about the second offence which now adds up as there is no actual record of it. Granted he did put it in his phone for the 16th instead of the 6th and missed the court date which because there were two offences resulted in a disqualification.

Can anyone explain how he has been convicted of failing to identify a driver for an offence that isn’t registered.

I’m afraid that is correct, the fact he got confused doesn’t make it not correct.

As he can’t be found guilty of the driving offence as he’s not identified as the driver, it’s all been covered already, it’s crystal clear to me what has happened. Also there is no such event as registering an offence.


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:41
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 17:34) *
In summary, he found out about the first conviction, was setup to do an SD, then got the paperwork with a court date for the second one so didn’t bother to do the SD for the first, then missed the court date for the second one. So the SD request for the first case he is way out of time due to the defendant’s own inactivity and he has no basis for a second SD as he was aware of the case.

This is pretty much as I feared would be the case from the first post.

Sorry no that is not correct. He got a letter saying he had been given 6 points , he contacted the local magistrates via phone who said a court date had been set so he could no longer do a SD, he thought it was for the one offence as he had received nothing about the second offence which now adds up as there is no actual record of it. Granted he did put it in his phone for the 16th instead of the 6th and missed the court date which because there were two offences resulted in a disqualification.

Can anyone explain how he has been convicted of failing to identify a driver for an offence that isn’t registered.

I’m afraid that is correct, the fact he got confused doesn’t make it not correct.

As he can’t be found guilty of the driving offence as he’s not identified as the driver, it’s all been covered already, it’s crystal clear to me what has happened. Also there is no such event as registering an offence.

He never got any correspondence relating to the speeding. First letter he got related to the no identification and 6 points he didn’t not bother to do the SD he was told he couldn’t as he had to appear in court.
I stand corrected, her words were no trace of the offence not registered

This post has been edited by Typan: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:44
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The Rookie
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:44
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As has been gone through in the thread already, one court area will not know about cases in another court area.


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:51
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:44) *
As has been gone through in the thread already, one court area will not know about cases in another court area.


Sorry the Crown court with no record is the same area (1 mile apart) as the magistrates.
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peterguk
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:45
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:41) *
her words were no trace of the offence


If no reply was made to the S.172 request for driver details, then it is possible the speeding offence was not mentioned on the summons, since there was no evidence as to who the driver was.


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:08
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:45) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:41) *
her words were no trace of the offence


If no reply was made to the S.172 request for driver details, then it is possible the speeding offence was not mentioned on the summons, since there was no evidence as to who the driver was.


This relates to the failure to stop not speeding, the women from the Crown Court said (email above) that the judge said he could appeal sentence, but as there is no record of that offence she doesn’t know how?

This post has been edited by Typan: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:13
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peterguk
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:10
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:45) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:41) *
her words were no trace of the offence


If no reply was made to the S.172 request for driver details, then it is possible the speeding offence was not mentioned on the summons, since there was no evidence as to who the driver was.


This relates to the failure to report an accident not speeding ?


OK, so if he did not reply to that S.172 request, then same might reply. What charges \were on the summons?


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:40
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:10) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:45) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:41) *
her words were no trace of the offence


If no reply was made to the S.172 request for driver details, then it is possible the speeding offence was not mentioned on the summons, since there was no evidence as to who the driver was.


This relates to the failure to report an accident not speeding ?


OK, so if he did not reply to that S.172 request, then same might reply. What charges \were on the summons?

He didn’t receive a summons relating to this. It was only after a clerk in the magistrates dug around after he got 12 points and he was disqualified. It took her a week. She found the offence of failing to disclose information re failing to report at a minor traffic accident, but they can’t find any record of the oringanal offence ( failing to report TA) that’s what is so confusing. They have a record of the S.172 but nothing relating to the original offence ?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:53
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Perhaps the underlying offence wasn’t proceeded with because they didn’t know who to prosecute.

To be honest, this is such a confused mess that he’s better off getting a lawyer.


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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 22:41
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 21:53) *
Perhaps the underlying offence wasn’t proceeded with because they didn’t know who to prosecute.

To be honest, this is such a confused mess that he’s better off getting a lawyer.

I totally agree, but unfortunately he can’t afford one. It is a mess and confusing the clerks in the courts have been really helpful to be fair. It is hard to keep track of what’s gone on
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Dwaynedouglas
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 09:54
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Please forgive me if I'm wrong here...

From reading, I see two items:

Court One - Cheshire

You will need to contact Warrington Magistrates Court in order to request an out of time appeal for this case

1)
- Speeding offence (70 in a 50, 08/07/2017), not responded to by OPs friend.
- Speeding offence can't be prosecuted (Out of time), S172 not responded to, convicted in absence 23/08/17, 6 points + fine issued.
- No SD completed for this, as OP was confused.

The time limit for delivering this declaration to the court office for the magistrates’ court where the trial took place is 21 days from the date you found out about the case.


However, if OP's friend can explain their confusion on the Stat Dec form, there may be opportunity for it to be considered.

Court Two - Unknown location (Not Warrington)
2)
- Fail to stop road traffic collision 15/7/17.
- S172 not responded to, convicted in absence on 24/10/17, 6 points issued + fine. This takes OP to 12 points, and under totting up rules is disqualified.
- SD appointment missed for this due to OPs friend recording wrong date.
- Subsequently received E-mail that suspension of disqualification will stay in place until appeal is heard before a court
- Leave to appeal out of time for the S172 offence has been granted, provided valid reasons are given.

Have I understood this correctly?




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BertB
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:21
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When the Warrington case is put back to summons stage by the stat dec, IF the alternate charge of speeding is on the summons it will be for 70mph in a 50mph, which carries 4-6 points.

OP's son in law may end up back in the same boat of being a totter, although attendance will at least allow an EH plea at one of the hearing I guess (assuming he attends).
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Typan
post Tue, 27 Mar 2018 - 21:01
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So SIL has now got a date for his SD at a local court for the speeding offence, 2 weeks time. Can he try the plea bargain there ?

For the second offence the failure to report an accident, identiify etc , where they couldn’t find the original charge, he appealed to the Crown court against again both conviction and sentence. Although first time round the judge said he would hear the appeal against sentence they have now said it doesn’t warrant a Crown court appeal and it has been sent back to the original magistrates that dealt with it, is this usual?

Thanks
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