Legal effect of 'unlawful' DVLA licence revocations? Options

[anon45]

I'm glad the OP in this thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117322 appears to have had his case resolved, and it was surely prudent for that OP not to drive in the intervening period, but it raises a interesting question, for the Flame Pit, of whether a purported licence revocation based on a mistake of fact by a State agency (in that case, the false belief that the OP has been disqualified), is a valid revocation in the eye of the law, such that a driver who has had his licence "revoked" by mistake is actually guilty of the offence of "driving otherwise than in accordance with a valid licence", or even, depending on the wording of their insurance policy, inadvertently driving whilst uninsured (albeit that most insurance policies state "holds or has held, and is not disqualified from holding", or words to that effect).

This isn't the first time the DVLA and/ or courts appear to have messed up in this manner; there are many similar threads on the internet and even news stories, (although the Guardian story is not *quite* the same thing) https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jun/...ed-entitlements , so it could affect advice given in future live threads.

It seems arguable that the DVLA must have some valid reason in order to lawfully revoke a licence, and that having regard to natural justice, the Human Rights Act, and to a purposive interpretation of the statute, a licence "revocation" based on a mistake of fact by the State ought not to allow the State to then turn around, prosecute and fine the victim of their mistake. Accordingly, could it be argued that the purported revocation is unlawful, and therefore null and void, such that the driver continues to hold a full licence in the eyes of the law, (if not in the eyes of the DVLA), such that they are not guilty of any offence by continuing to drive?

None of the above detracts from the near certainty that the police would (repeatedly) seize a vehicle being driven by a person whose licence is shown as "revoked" or "disqualified" on their computer system, and that such a driver would likely find it virtually impossible to recover the impound fee (if the pound was even willing to release the vehicle to the holder of a "revoked" licence). Accordingly, it is likely to be prudent for such a driver to act as if their licence had been validly revoked and to refrain from driving until the situation is resolved.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by anon45: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 08:47

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[Slapdash]

Whilst not entirely relevant I have had some experience of the DVLA process. It can be a bit infuriating.

Some years ago I developed a notifiable neurological condition. So I notified. Filling in the form for my condition. The DVLA then decided it was the wrong form. After much toing and froing with different form providing exactly the same answers to the same questions they decided it was right.

They made their enquiries over a number of months. And eventually I got a response. Actually 3 on the same day.

1. No restriction.
2. 5 year restriction.
3. Licence revoked.

A few more month passed (I carried on driving have taken informal advice from a solicitor friend) and they issued me with a 1 year licence.

It didnt have my 30 years previous motorbikr entitlement. Eventually they put it back after more letters.

Then I moved and did a change of address.

So they wanted everything again (which seemed unreasonable). Eventually they issued a 3 year licence. But all the groups changed to the current set. 3.5t not 7.5. Towing restrictions etc.

Then about 6 months later I got a revocation because I hadnt returned some new information they wanted. In the exchange they admitted they hadn't a clue what it was because they hadn't requested anything. But the whole process was then gone through again.

This licence expired earlier this year. They sent me the forms. I sent them back. They said they were ignoring them because the application was too early.

So cue another set a few weeks later.

My licence then expired. It still is. They sent me a letter saying I am still entitled to drive, even though licence is expired. But this may not be valid abroad. (They have now completed their enquiries and the licence is due for issue this week).

I asked a police acquaintance what happens if i get a nip. He said it will get messy and the letter would be accepted after they have made medical enquiries so I would probably miss any course offer due to the back and forth time.

I spent a few months in Spain. Driving, with the letter. I had asked the spanish authorities whether they would accept it and they said it was down to the district that happened to stop me. Fortunayely I managed to avoid any cameras etc.

I appreciate the need for the checks etc and that the dvla are also constrained by trying to get response from consultants etc. But the system is a major pita.

/rant

[bama]

There is statutory provision that DVLA records are presumed to be correct.
(I forget where it hides in the legislation so can't cite off the top of my head)

Only problem is DVLA data is known to be less than clean - quite a bit less.

One of those 'true in law but not in fact' things
that cause all kinds of havoc in the real (factual) world.

Its a bit like the old joke "But you must be dead Mr Smith, it says so on this printout"

add in DVLA drones who are not allowed to think
et voila !

This post has been edited by bama: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 15:43

[nigelbb]

I had a similar screw up by the DVLA but this time with a V5C & Road Tax. I moved house & filled in & sent off the V5C in a timely fashion & in due course received the new document. A few weeks later I was duly wondering when the MOT ran out so accessed the DVLA web site only to discover that it was not taxed. I knew that I paid by direct debit so immediately phoned the DVLA who said that it was because there had been a change of keeper that the tax had been cancelled & the only thing for me to do was to tax it again. I pointed out that I had been driving around for three weeks with no tax & it was only by accident that I discovered the car wasn't taxed & in any case there was no change of keeper just a change of address. I then looked more closely at the new V5C & noticed that it did indeed have me as both the keeper & the previous keeper.

Eventually it was sorted & it was evidently my fault as while I had not ticked the box indicating that I was the new keeper I had entered my name & title. On the old V5C my title was Dr & on the new V5C it was Doctor. The name was the same. A new V5C arrived a week or so later with the correct previous keeper. I wasn't out of pocket as I was refunded the direct debit but the whole episode was annoying & time consuming.

I raised a formal complaint with the DVLA that they had messed up & left me driving round without tax. My car could have been stopped or clamped at any time. My big complaint was that through no fault of mine I was breaking the law. The refunded direct debit payment didn't even reach my bank account until after I discovered the problem. The DVLA basically fobbed me off with an emollient reply & I didn't have the energy to raise the complaint any higher.

[Anon Y Mouse]

Actually it is my post that the OP is referring to. Whilst I did not drive between getting the letter from the DVLA and getting a call from them to tell me it had been corrected, my greatest concern was that I was driving for four days between the court issuing the ban and receipt of the letter from the DVLA.

I wonder how many people contact the DVLA before driving to ensure their licence is valid. Even their website takes by their own admission 48 hours to be updated, so I am at a loss as to how I could have avoided committing an offence in the intervening period.

As ignorance is no defence, I would have little to go on in court other than mitigation. I wonder how many magistrates check their licence hasn't been revoked before going to work each day.

[The Rookie]

I'm not sure I agree, you were not disqualified by a court (someone else was), so certainly it was not 'driving while disqualified', the DVLA had not revoked your licence but were asking for it to be returned due to that disqualification as I understand it, so no offence was commited by you (though driving could create all sorts of issues).

When the DVLA revoke a licence for other reasons (such as failing to submit a licence for endorsement or under the new drivers act) that sets a date in the future when that will occur.



This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 - 10:36

[Slapdash]

I am not sure it is always in the future. When mine was revoked (medical) it was revoked as of the date of the letter, obviously in the past by the time i actually received it.

[Anon Y Mouse]

Well on the advice of both the DVLA and the court I did not drive once I was aware of the situation. Aside from being the inconvenience of being in a cell while it was sorted (and being in a cell means I would be reliant on the police to sort it if they felt like it).

Both the court and the DVLA pointed out that I did not have a valid licence. The reason I did not hold a valid licence was irrelevant as I would be committing an offence by driving without a valid licence.

In reality, the licence should and was reinstated, with no period of being disqualified in the past recorded, so if I had been charged for driving without a valid licence, by the time it got to court, there would be evidence to the contrary. It seems very unlikely a court would convict in these circumstances. That does not take away the probability of being arrested, charged, having to go to court, and having my vehicle seized.

[nigelbb]

Actually it is my post that the OP is referring to. Whilst I did not drive between getting the letter from the DVLA and getting a call from them to tell me it had been corrected, my greatest concern was that I was driving for four days between the court issuing the ban and receipt of the letter from the DVLA.

This was my main complaint with regard to the DVLA screw up with my Road Tax. I was unaware that they had cancelled the tax & it was only several weeks later that I incidentally discovered the car was untaxed while checking the MOT status. In the meantime my car could have been clamped.