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Stopped for obeying the speed limit
bearclaw
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 03:08
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Morning everyone.

Bit of an odd query this one, apologies in advance if I seem a little rambling.

Been pulled over for the first time ever for - as far as I can tell - obeying the speed limit. OR to be more exact what I thought was the limit.

Driving home I took one of my less used routes into Leeds to avoid heavy traffic on my regular route. I know the road - whcih is to say I know generally what it's like, I know where the danger spots are but I've probably not been down it in five years or so. It's dark, unlit rural single carriageway, slightly greasy road from rain, I'm doing about 50mph or so. I probably could go a bit faster (it's a 60 limit) but generally thats the speed I was comfortable with for the conditions. Occassional cars the other way, I've got someone following, not too close not off in the distance. Certainly not tailgating.

Now I come to a straight, where I know there is a crossroads that has a fair number of bad accidents, it's poor visibility and people go blasting along way over the limit.. so I get close - and theres new streetlights. See here...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9385399,-...3312!8i6656

Six lights at the junction, certainly a "system of streetlighting". Did I pass a 30mph sign? Dunno. But I dab the brake to let the guy behind know and then brake for the "limit" if there is one. Go through the shiny new LED lighting - very nice it certainly needed it and drop a cog and accelerate back up to about 55 or so as this bits nice and easy now for a while.

Car behind I kept an eye on - got close but not really that close... and then it shoots past me and then stops..... blocking both lanes. So I start to reverse as the driver gets out as presumably the copper who gets out wants oh it's a copper.... as far as I can tell in full uniform minus his hat.

Right.

So we have a conversation through my drivers window about the speed. I point out that I dont think it unreasonable to assume those lights make that bit a thirty limit, and even if they dont its surely reasonable to slow down just in case.

His response is to the effect that I knew I had a police car following me and I was being deliberatly awkward. My reply was that I'm not trying to be awkward and I wasnt driving such that it would cause massive problems, I didnt cram on the brakes for example.

End result was he said he would consider if this needed to go any further and he then got in his car and left. So I'm not even sure if that was a verbal NIP or whatever. Does that section look like a probable as in enforcable 30 section or is it more like they never put repeaters up for the 60 limit - does it even need any? Also, advice on what to do - is this going to go anywhere, is this the last I hear of this or could he decide to go further. He never checked anything else as far as I can tell - no licence check, no insurance, I'm certain he never ran the VRM through a PNC check. It was as far from what I expected as you could get.



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post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 03:08
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paulajayne
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 08:13
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That area looks like a normal lighted junction.

Highly unlikely anything will come of it, but ensure your V5 (Log book) has your correct address, just in case.

This post has been edited by paulajayne: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 08:16
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 09:13
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QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 03:08) *
Does that section look like a probable as in enforcable 30 section or is it more like they never put repeaters up for the 60 limit - does it even need any? Also, advice on what to do - is this going to go anywhere, is this the last I hear of this or could he decide to go further.

Firstly, it's unlikely you'll hear anything.

In regards to the limit. I don't think it's unreasonable being in a NSL and then seeing streetlights to show caution - and there's also signs showing crossroads, 'Reduce Speed Now' and 'Slow' on the road. Clearly for drivers to take appropriate actions, including slowing a bit - after all the speed limit is not a target.

However, a 30mph terminal sign (two really) would be required and it's not there. It's an extremely short section of street lighting and the whole length appears to be less than the minimum necessary (200 yards/185 metres) to make a restricted road. (Although this is perhaps not something you could accurately calculate when driving)

As long as you didn't throw the anchors out then I can't see an issue. (And there's an argument any car following you should leave sufficient distance to respond accordingly anyway)

I wouldn't worry and carry on unless you did hear anything. It does not appear your driving was not that of a safe and competent driver.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 09:17


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:18
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Sounds to me as though the officer jumped to the conclusion you were being awkward when actually you were showing a proper caution and in fact following the direction to SLOW on the road, then realised he was mistaken but did not like to admit it. Most unlikely you will hear any more.


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bama
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 18:29
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QUOTE
His response is to the effect that I knew I had a police car following me


Ahh another mind reader in a police uniform.....


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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bearclaw
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 19:48
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Thanks to all who replied. I shall rest easy.

As an aside to the regulars - thanks for all the help you give everyone. It's quite an eyeopening read some of this forum!
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The Rookie
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:40
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:13) *
However, a 30mph terminal sign (two really) would be required and it's not there. It's an extremely short section of street lighting and the whole length appears to be less than the minimum necessary (200 yards/185 metres) to make a restricted road. (Although this is perhaps not something you could accurately calculate when driving)

As 30 terminal signs are not needed to prosecute, they are certainly not required in the sense you mean.

Who said a section of restricted road had to be longer than that, I think you are confusing the measure of the maximum distance between lighting.


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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:49
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Indeed, the maximum spacing of subsequent lighting is 183 metres. The complete start to end of this system appears to be less than this - more an observation about how short it is rather than its significance. (As the spacing is clearly lower than this then it has potential to be a restricted road) But I agree how my post read - Implying a restricted road would have to be at least 183 metres long.

But in isolation that it is with no indication of a 30mph limit (from a NSL road) then it is clearly not a restricted road and any prosecution attempting this would fail. (Not that anyone appears to be interested in enforcing a 30mph limit in that stretch)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:52


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 06:36
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You can take that as an implication, but seriously I have no idea how, personally I think it's not at all true. What about roads less than 200yards long? You are saying they wouldn't all need a TRO to be a 30 limit.

The indication it is restricted comes from the system of street lighting, the law is quite clear that no signs are needed for a successful prosecution as the lighting is all the indication needed, its alluded to in Coombes but in that case the prosecution didn't present any evidence it was a restricted road.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 06:37


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Logician
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 12:39
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The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 contains the following provisions:

82 What roads are restricted roads.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 84(3) of this Act, a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act if—
(a) in England and Wales, there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart

85(5) In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with such a system of street or carriageway lighting, evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.


So as there appears to be a compliant system of street lighting, and no signs indicating that it is not a restricted road, it appears that it is in fact a restricted road. The traffic authority may not have intended it to be, but if the do not want it to be, then they have to make a TRO to that effect and provide NSL signs.


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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 13:50
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 12:39) *
So as there appears to be a compliant system of street lighting, and no signs indicating that it is not a restricted road, it appears that it is in fact a restricted road. The traffic authority may not have intended it to be, but if the do not want it to be, then they have to make a TRO to that effect and provide NSL signs.

That's interesting - so in absence of a NSL sign then perhaps there is a concrete reason to slow...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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jdh
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 13:56
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Unlike the roads leading up to it this roundabout has lighting and it also has NSL repeaters too, presumably to ward off any confusion such as the OP suffered. Seems a sensible way of doing it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 14:13
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 14:50) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 12:39) *
So as there appears to be a compliant system of street lighting, and no signs indicating that it is not a restricted road, it appears that it is in fact a restricted road. The traffic authority may not have intended it to be, but if the do not want it to be, then they have to make a TRO to that effect and provide NSL signs.

That's interesting - so in absence of a NSL sign then perhaps there is a concrete reason to slow...

Exactly, which I think is where I came in.

We had a section of a local 6-lane dual carriageway where they extended the street lighting back from the junction by another 300m, no TRO, no signs, it took them 4 years to fix it while admitting it was a 'mistake'.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 14:20
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QUOTE (jdh @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 14:56) *
Unlike the roads leading up to it this roundabout has lighting and it also has NSL repeaters too, presumably to ward off any confusion such as the OP suffered. Seems a sensible way of doing it.


In these circumstances I would be inclined to contact the highway authority and ask them to either confirm that the road is a restricted road, or install NSL repeaters (the latter being the likely outcome).


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 22:38
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Interesting as this is it doesn't seem very relevant.


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bearclaw
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:21
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I noticed a couple of officers of the "Traffic variety" having fun with their shiny BMW with a flat tyre. I did wander over to offer them locking nut from mine since that was a primary problem - sadly it didn't fit.

We then got onto discussing the 30 limits since it was their patch and asking if they thought I was doing wrong (I know - don't poke the bear when it's sleeping but...).

End result was that they said no that was reasonable driving if a little odd and they could understand why it could be considered a 30 limit. However the main upshot is that they would like a statement from me about an individual that goes round stopping cars like this and pretending to be a police officer.... so the plot thickens..... It appears that this is not the first time this has happened.
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JP1978
post Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 19:18
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QUOTE (bearclaw @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:21) *
End result was that they said no that was reasonable driving if a little odd and they could understand why it could be considered a 30 limit. However the main upshot is that they would like a statement from me about an individual that goes round stopping cars like this and pretending to be a police officer.... so the plot thickens..... It appears that this is not the first time this has happened.


This was my first thoughts to be honest, or an over eager Special Constable - not trying to tar all with the same brush but there is the odd SC here and there that do some silly things when in their own car and on way to duty (or even off duty) - I should know - I hate to admit it but looking back I did a couple of silly things in my first few weeks of been in the specials. Intended well at the time but looking back, regrettable. Much older and hopefully wiser now (and not in the specials!)

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