Premier Park Limited permit holders only, Driver U18 has managed two in as many months! Options

[C70FTY]

Sorry if this this has been answered elsewhere, I have read lots of information and want to get some help.

My Son past his test in March and is not 18 until December. This is the third parking ticket in as many months

Any ideas or suggestions from the PCN notices that my wife has received, attached?

My son suffers from dyspraxia and dyslexia and is a full time student, he was unaware of the parking restrictions. I haven’t been to the area to take any photos, He didn't have a ticket on his windscreen for one of the occasions we have received a PCN notice, but they are both attached. He was visiting friends who live in the road.

He was unaware that he needed a permit as his stay was during the day and his friends told him that he would be ok?

Apart from the usual: check contract with the land owner, insufficient signage amount demanded not sufficiently displayed and that he was visiting residence who have two valid permits to park, should i consider any other elements from the documentation provided.

Kind Regards

Crofty

This post has been edited by C70FTY: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 15:28

Attached File(s)

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[Lynnzer]

Sounds like a residential ticketing.
Visiting friend at his leased or rented accommodation.
The lease or rental agreement will be key to sorting this out.
Get a copy of the lease/rental agreement and post it here. We need to see what it says about parking/peaceful enjoyment etc.
A picture of the sign there will also be useful.

In the meantime read the articles on my signature links to get a grasp of this whole sham.

[C70FTY]

I think it will be hard to get a copy of the lease agreement from a friends parents. Should I ask for a copy from premier park?

I will make a trip to the location to get a picture of the sign.

I have a picture from the Bay when they parked showing the sign behind a bush, I dont appear to be able to upload a picture taken from the bay showing the sign as I have run out of space?

[Gan]

Premier Park won't have a copy of the lease agreement

It will release redacted copies of its landowner contracts if parking notices are appealed to POPLA

More accurately, it will release the contracts if they drafted them itself and they're watertight
If not, it will submit witness statements that it signed itself on behalf of the landowner

See the faq about using tinypic to host pictures

[Dennis Basher]

Based on your opening post, I assume that your wife is the vehicle's registered keeper? That's a good thing because the notices that Premier have sent her don't comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA") - this means that Premier have forfeited the right to claim payment from her.

Beware - Premier will try and trick your wife into naming the driver. It's important that she doesn't fall into that trap.

Although she's probably missed the boat to "appeal" the first PCN dated 27th June, there's still time to deal with the second PCN dated 11th July. Although Premier will automatically reject her initial "appeal", your wife will then have the chance to get the charge cancelled at the next stage of the process (i.e. POPLA). With a POPLA win under her belt, it's very unlikely that Premier would ever try to take a claim for the earlier PCN to Court.

One of the reasons why Premier's notices don't comply with POFA is that they don't specify the relevant land on which the vehicle was parked. "Lumpy Lane" is not specific enough. Assuming that the PCNs are intended to refer to Lumpy Lane in Southampton, based on pictures on GSV it looks like at least part of Lumpy Lane is a public highway rather than a private road. For example the "Lumpy Lane" sign at the entrance to the lane includes the wording "City of Southampton" rather than "Private Road". Also on GSV, at 10 Lumpy Lane, there is what appears to be a Council parking sign. On GSV, Premier's signs can be seen further along, set back from the lane itself in various residential parking bays.

This post has been edited by Dennis Basher: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 23:04

[C70FTY]

Thank you Dennis Basher, we didn't receive the original PCN until the 3rd July as we were away. I read the PCN to say I had 29 days from the day I received the letter which expires on Tuesday.

On what ground should I initial dispute/appeal the PCN. Do I use the standard Not the driver and do not wish to name the driver. They were visiting a friend who is a resident and have two valid permits for parking.

Like you said they will reject the appeal any how. But you thin that there is enough reasons why it doesn't comply with the POFA to win the appeal?

This post has been edited by C70FTY: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:50

[SchoolRunMum]

But you think that there is enough reasons why it doesn't comply with the POFA to win the appeal?

Not at POPLA on that basis alone. They have been badly advised about 'within 29 days' being compliant enough!

But most cases are winnable at POPLA. Just search the forum for Premier POPLA and read some that have gone before, long appeals deliberately.

You need to appeal both of these online today, as keeper, like in every other thread about BPA member appeals. No need for us to type an example out on every thread, there are everywhere just don't say who was driving. And when they write to ask, ignore them.

[C70FTY]

[quote name='SchoolRunMum' date='Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 13:00' post='1304460']
They have been badly advised about 'within 29 days' being compliant enough!

I'm sorry I didn't understand the comment about they have been badly advised?

I will forumate an appeal in the next few hours using some that I have found on the forums. What should it include initially?

[C70FTY]

My First draft for the initial appeal, should I make reference to the fact they were visiting a resident who has a valid permit?

Dear Sir

Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]
Premier Park Ltd: Parking Charge Notice [xxxxxx]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Premier Park Ltd (“Premier”) as a Notice to Keeper. I confirm that I am the keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally dispute the validity of this PCN. I am writing within the 29 days of receiving this letter as permitted under contesting this parking charge.

I confirm that I am this vehicle’s keeper for the purposes of the corresponding definition under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I set out why I am not liable for this parking charge as follows:

1) Premier failed to deliver a Notice to Keeper in compliance with the requirements of POFA.
The notices don't comply with POFA as it doesn't specify the relevant land on which the vehicle was parked. "Lumpy Lane" is not specific enough. Assuming that the PCN is intended to refer to Lumpy Lane in Southampton, part of Lumpy Lane is a public highway rather than a private road. For example the "Lumpy Lane" sign at the entrance to the lane includes the wording "City of Southampton" rather than "Private Road".

2) Premier has no standing or authority to pursue charges or to form contracts with drivers using this particular car park.
If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges.

3) The car park signage was inadequate and difficult to read.
Premier should be aware that the BPA Code of Practice requires that terms on car park entrance signs must be clearly readable without a driver having to turn away from the road ahead. In circumstances where the terms of a notice are not negotiable (as is the case with the car park signage) and where there is any ambiguity or contradiction in those terms, the rule of contra proferentem shall apply against the party responsible for writing those terms. This is confirmed within the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

4) The charge is extravagant and unconscionable and is not saved by the decision in ParkingEye vs Beavis
This case can be very easily distinguished from the case of ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. The Beavis judgement was dependent upon ParkingEye’s signs being clear; I refer POPLA to Paragraphs 90 and 100 of Beavis as follows:
Paragraph 90: “At all material times since then, ParkingEye has displayed about 20 signs at the entrance to the car park and at frequent intervals throughout it. The signs are large, prominent and legible, so that any reasonable user of the car park would be aware of their existence and nature, and would have a fair opportunity to read them if he or she wished to do so”.
Paragraph 100: “The charge is prominently displayed in large letters at the entrance to the car park and at frequent intervals within it”.
As described in Point 3, I have good reason to believe that Premier’s signs were not to the high standard considered by the Supreme Court in the Beavis case.

Therefore please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge or alternatively, should you still believe that you have a valid claim, please provide me with the necessary POPLA code so that I may escalate this dispute to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.

Yours faithfully,


[A Keeper]

[ostell]

First paragraph. include a statement that you were not the driver at the time.

4) Also: Beavis had a commercial interest in maintaing a turnover of customers in the car park, this is a residential car park and there is no commercial interest in creating a turnover.

[SchoolRunMum]

That's very short for a POPLA appeal, compare it to other PP ones.

Search 'Premier 29 days POPLA' or similar keywords to learn about it.

[Lynnzer]

If you want to make it easier you need a copy of a lease. Doesn't matter where you get it but I'd suggest getting one quickly.
If no-one can show you one then you can get a copy from the Land Registry for the property concerned. It'll cost less than a tenner I believe and would be a killer document.
I think you can do this all online too.

There are the title deeds which would show any lease contents, and a separate Title Plan which would show the extent of the property including boundaries and allocated spaces such as parking bays.

If no parking bay is shown then the road is presumably owned by the council, or perhaps a landholder who purchased the land for constructing homes and has kept hold of the actual roadways.


This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 19:17

[C70FTY]

Please can you see the appeal decline for one of the appeals sent below, because it is past the 29 days of the date of issue, although this doesn't make reference to the 29 days being from the date of the letter. But the date it was received.

Any ideas as they haven't provided a POPLA code for this appeal only the email below.


Please be advised that we are no longer able to deal with your appeal at this late date as your case is now being dealt with by our Collection Agency. Their details are as follows;

Debt Recovery Plus Ltd.
P.O. Box 411
Dukinfield
SK14 9DD

Telephone Number: 0141 375 1152

Website: http://www.debtrecoveryplus.co.uk/

Yours Sincerely
cid:image001.png@01D0DF35.80D0C250

The Appeals Team
Premier Park Ltd

[Dennis Basher]

It looks like Premier are playing hard ball with the first PCN. They will claim that this PCN, being dated Tuesday 27th June was sent that day and was deemed to have been delivered two working days later on Thursday 29th June. They will argue that the period to "appeal" would therefore have been the 29 days from Friday 30th June to Friday 28th July inclusive.

You'll need to focus your efforts on getting the second PCN cancelled via POPLA. When you win, you can write to Premier to instruct them to cancel their first PCN on the basis that POPLA has already determined the other PCN (issued in identical circumstances) as being invalid.

This post has been edited by Dennis Basher: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 16:58

[C70FTY]

Second appeal response below, no POPLA code provided.

We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal, on behalf of the driver, appealing against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the vehicle.

We note your comments and must refer you to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 - Recovery of unpaid Parking Charges. This is available to view online at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4

We must therefore request that the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention are supplied; this must include their full name and serviceable UK postal address. If you are unwilling or unable to provide these details the registered keeper of this vehicle will remain liable for this PCN. This information should be provided by 9th August 2017. Please note, Premier Park Limited will not reply to any correspondence until after the above date, if the requested information is not provided.

If we do not receive this information by the date given, the registered keeper of the vehicle at the date of event will be held liable.

If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit www.pcnpayments.com

Please respond by return or by filling in the Transfer of Liability form on the reverse of the PCN and posting it to Premier Park, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG.


Yours Sincerely,
cid:image001.png@01D15F47.91CA8360

The Appeals Team
Premier Park Ltd

[Dennis Basher]

That's Premier's standard letter to trick keepers into giving away who was driving.

This is to be ignored - their standard rejection letter + POPLA Code will follow in a couple of weeks.

[Mason g]

Just checking here can a minor who is under 18 be forced or knowingly enter into a contract?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-...onsumer-rights/

Would that not make the ticket or the contractual obligation null and void?

Debt

As a child or young person, you cannot normally be taken to court for debt. This is because you cannot be legally held to a contract you make when you are under 18.


This post has been edited by Mason g: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 20:55

[nosferatu1001]

Dont believe citizens advice on everything.
You CAN be party to contracts. Buying food, for example.

[ostell]

Underage can be held liable for a contract for necessities.

[C70FTY]

I have taken photos of the lane and area where the car was parked in Lumpy lane. The bush pictures shows the bay where the car was parked and the sign is almost hidden behind a bush. Please see close up of sign taken when zooming in from the car along with entrance and road view.













This post has been edited by C70FTY: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 20:04