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PCN Court Case 3rd May
PublicanPaul
post Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 16:41
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I parked in a private car park at 6.30am on a Sunday morning. The car park is opposite my flat and I wanted to park briefly to safely load by 8 month old son and luggage into the
car before leaving on holiday. The only alternative would have been to double park in the road. I stated this is my subsequent appeal.
The car park was supposedly for residents with a permit but there is also a pay and display machine. The car park was empty as always. The residents park in an underground car
park under their flats. This 2 bay car park was never used. There was a sign stating that the car park was permit only but it was not lit. It is no longer there. The pay and display
machine that is normally in use had been covered over at this point and was out of order. It remains in use today.
I had loaded some luggage into the car and had gone back to my flat to get my son. When returning I had been issued a ticket timed at 6.45am. The pictures on the PCN show the
ticket inspector witnessed the car for 2 minutes between 6.43-6.45am. At no point did I see the inspector and I suspect that they were/are a resident of the building and ran down
and gave me a ticket.
The charge levied was £100 and in the pre-court documents I have been sent the claimant suggests the 'additional charge' is not a penalty, quoting the Beavis judgement etc.
I believe it is a penalty and is 'unconscionable and extravagant'. No residents were prevented from parking, no loss of income was incurred. The normal fees for pay and display
are £1.20 for an hour, £6 for 8 hours and £8 for 24 hours.

My court date is Wednesday 3rd May. Any advice or court cases I can use to support my defence would be very welcome. Apologies for poor image but the photos I have been sent
were poor quality, due to the darkness.

This post has been edited by PublicanPaul: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 18:58
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post Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 16:41
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PublicanPaul
post Fri, 28 Apr 2017 - 15:49
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JLC - DVLA would not confirm if they were accessed but did confirm that if the parking mgmt company was part of the BPA then they are obliged to provide the evidence to them. Neither Capital 2 Coast Parking Mgmnt or One Parking Ltd are listed on the BPA website as being members, although there is a Capital Car Park Control and One Parking Solution Ltd.

I presume that doesn't help us at all ?
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 28 Apr 2017 - 19:29
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I believe that what you have been told by DVLA is just plain wrong. Look through some other threads and I am sure you will find many cases where DVLA has disclosed information to registered keepers about when their DVLA data was requested and details of who to contact for these details.

Lots of PPCs, debt recovery firms, managing agents have their registered names of xxxx but choose to trade as yyyy which may explain the difficulty finding exact matches on the BPA website.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 06:57
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C2C are in the IPC not the BPA.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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emanresu
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 07:33
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C2C were banned from DVLA access in early 2015 but as the OP appears to have outed himself as the driver, the point is moot.

C2C's whole business model was based on not getting details from the DVLA so they could use "unorthodox" methods outside of DVLA sanction. The most common was to have parking entrepreneurs like neighbours, identifying people and taking pics which IMHO happened in this case. DVLA is a red herring.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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Lynnzer
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 08:54
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 08:33) *
C2C were banned from DVLA access in early 2015 but as the OP appears to have outed himself as the driver, the point is moot.

C2C's whole business model was based on not getting details from the DVLA so they could use "unorthodox" methods outside of DVLA sanction. The most common was to have parking entrepreneurs like neighbours, identifying people and taking pics which IMHO happened in this case. DVLA is a red herring.

It does open up the argument that the OP is entitled to question the "identifier" though.
DVLA HAS to say who accessed your records and when. They ABSOLUTELY must.

I guess it's way too late now but you should ask David.Dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

As for the identification, if they don'ty submit any evidence of you from the DVLA, or an admission from you that you were the driver then you have to rebutt them on that.
You have a right to question someone who may have made an ad-hoc recognition. It's not unlikley that poor weather conditions, a misted up window through which they peered may have given rise to mis-identification and it's also probable that if the nosey git knows your car he might not have even seen you at all and just put two and two together and made 5.

-------------------EDIT----------------------


Just had a full read of the topic again. I forgot this is MIL.
They have no right to use your details at all. They have no part in the process and the DVLA doesn't allow the sale of details from one PPC to another quite separate company.

Just read up on the Pranksters Blog on how MIL has to be handled. Look for posts from late last year when MIL were outed for unlawful use of RK details.

At the very least MIL have only bought an ALLEGED or DENIED debt. They will be unlikely to show any details to support their case. The photo you placed in your first post is as good as someone using sunglasses on a misty day. It lacks clarity but does show how poorly the visibility is down there for easy recognition of the signs.

This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 09:03


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The Rookie
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 09:40
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MIL only have no right to the data IF it was acquired from DVLA, if it came from elsewhere then they do and can use it.

There is still the whole assignment shenanigans though.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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emanresu
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 10:24
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QUOTE
MIL only have no right to the data IF it was acquired from DVLA, if it came from elsewhere then they do and can use it.


+1

QUOTE
DVLA HAS to say who accessed your records and when. They ABSOLUTELY must.


IMHO they didn't

QUOTE
C2C's whole business model was based on not getting details from the DVLA so they could use "unorthodox" methods outside of DVLA sanction. The most common was to have parking entrepreneurs like neighbours, identifying people and taking pics


C2C were audited by the DVLA on 20/2/2015 so about the time of the parking event. In that audit C2C say

QUOTE
At the time of my visit you advised that the IPC had suspended Capital 2 Coast for signage issues. You showed me a template of the signage and advised that the wording was being changed with effect from 13/02/2015 to advise that registered keeper details may be requested from DVLA in the event that the PCN remains un-resolved. Further you advised and showed me a sample of contracts which were being re-drawn with your clients to take into effect of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.


So there is no way C2C got the details from the DVLA but signs and contracts were an issue for them and perhaps the OP can go through the MIL pack. He will see that the image of the sign in the pack will be questionable. They usually don't have a time stamped image of the signs. Instead they provide a "site plan" and a representation of the sign that they say was there (but might not).

What does the MIL pack show?


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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PublicanPaul
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 13:50
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emanresu - They do have a a time stamped image of the sign, although the photo is blurred and hard to read, so they have added a pdf version as well.
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emanresu
post Sat, 29 Apr 2017 - 14:24
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Compare the blurred image with the pdf. You have to challenge the pic of the sign with the judge saying there is no legal certainty that the sign they claim was there is the one they have reproduced. The pdf is there to sway the judge. You have to sway the judge the other way. If the judge is leaning MIL's way, then suggest that the case is adjourned for the claimant to produce a better quality image with the words i.e. the contract shown. They won't be able to.

Often with MIL cases there is a flaw somewhere which means the PPC does not want to take the case on themselves, so MIL have a punt in trying to gloss over the issue with the details of the sign. The sign is key and should be challenged as hard as you can.

Add in the contract too, if no contract has been produced. And check the dates on the contract as well.

The win is there for you should you want to take it.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 30 Apr 2017 - 19:35
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QUOTE (PublicanPaul @ Fri, 28 Apr 2017 - 11:59) *
SchoolRunMum - Yes please help ! Answers to your questions are:

Capital 2 Coast issued ticket on 15/03/2015
The ticket was actually a Fixed Charge Notice (FCN) not sure if that makes a difference - company number is 08267109. All later correspondance refers to a PCN.
Yes I appealed it.
Capital 2 Coast sent a response from their Appeals Department on 02/04/2015
Yes I received a Notice of Assignment from MIL
In my witness statement I stated:
1. I parked in an empty car park at approx 6.30am on a Sunday morning so I could safely load the car with luggage and my infant son without having to double park
in the road.
2. No residents were prevented from parking.
3. No financial loss was incurred.
4. I do not accept that I agreed terms of any contract.

Yesterday I posted the template letter to MIL re breach of DPA as advised by Lynnzer. They should receive it by recorded delivery today.



I've had one email from you with 9 attachments - is that everything?
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 1 May 2017 - 18:46
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Please can someone remind me urgently, of MIL's email address?

EDIT: found it:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...99#post71921699

Heheheee! These MIL evidence packs are a gift that keeps on giving.

I particularly like the signatures and dates in this one...

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Mon, 1 May 2017 - 20:18
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ostell
post Mon, 1 May 2017 - 21:23
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Well stop keeping us all in suspenders then!
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 1 May 2017 - 21:28
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Hearing is this week, let's not tip them off.
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PublicanPaul
post Thu, 4 May 2017 - 20:01
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Dear All

We won ! And this is how it happened ...

MIL sent a representative from Elms Law and, following SchoolRunMum's advice to the letter, I immediately asked her to identify herself and confirm if she had RoA. Judge Pollard initially said the lady in question (unfortunately I can't remember her name, although it wasn't the infamous Ms Kauser) was fine as she was a regular at Brighton County Court. However I pushed it slightly more and said I had a recent case file relating to Elms Law and how they weren't actually a law firm/solicitors etc.

The lady from Elms Law then volunteered a document she believed would confirm her status but the judge immediately spotted something that suggested Elms Law were merely instructed by solicitors. He then asked to see the case example that I had, McShane Vs Lincoln, and additional supporting evidence from the Parking Prankster.

He then told the unfortunate lady she clearly had no RoA as Elms Law were not solicitors and she wasn't being supervisied by one. She attempted to argue otherwise but the judge was having none of it and dismissed the case ! We didn't even get into the skeleton defense argument.

I asked if I could present my costs claim and he said that costs were at his discretion and he wasn't going to award any. Which is a shame but I'll take the win.

I got the impression that the Elms Law lady did not have a copy of the Skeleton Defense Argument, although I had emailed it to MIL the day before, as she initially seemed quite happy to proceed. The judge did have a copy but I'm not convinced he'd read it in advance. MIL have done her no favours there as I'm sure if I'd had a chance to present my argument their case would have crumbled before her eyes (what with the non-matching signatures, the non-assignment pile of rubbish and the icing on the cake, the 2010 'contract' mentioning more than once, an Act that hadn't even been thought of...).

Additionally a gentleman, who had asked if he could sit in on the hearing, approached me afterwards and said he did research on behalf of 'forums'. I'm sure many of you are familiar with him. He reliably informed me that he'd been in previous hearings with the same Elms Law lady and she had previously told a judge that she was a solicitor, when clearly she is nothing of the sort !

I have to say I enjoyed the whole experience immensly, it's just a shame I couldn't stick it to MIL a bit more. My sincere thanks to all who gave advice, but especially SchoolRunMum, whose Skeleton Defense Argument was so detailed that it gave me great confidence going into chambers. I would like to upload a copy so that everyone can read it, benefit from her hard work and see how she tore MIL's witness statement apart. What's the best way to share it ?

This post has been edited by PublicanPaul: Thu, 4 May 2017 - 20:29
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Dub_cat
post Thu, 4 May 2017 - 20:32
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Excellent!! good for you!! biggrin.gif
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lamilad
post Fri, 5 May 2017 - 00:39
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Brilliant stuff, well done, and well played on the RoA. Elms Legal seem to be everywhere at the moment...

QUOTE
However I pushed it slightly more and said I had a recent case file relating to Elms Law and how they weren't actually a law firm/solicitors etc.


Interesting, so who actually are they? What do they do? What is their function? Can you post a link to the case file you refer to?

Was the rep a solicitor, barrister or solicitors agent (legal exec) and were they with a firm/ in chambers?

This post has been edited by lamilad: Fri, 5 May 2017 - 00:40
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Porcupine
post Fri, 5 May 2017 - 01:34
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Elms Legal seem to be a one man band i.e. the extravagantly named Edmund Jonathan Garvey Shoreman-Lawson, I'm sure the regulars on here know all about him.

According to the Law Society he is in house solicitor to VCS and MIL Collections.

http://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/person...shoreman-lawson

On Elms Legal's website they claim "All of our advocates have an extensive knowledge of the areas of law that we specialise in." and one of those areas is 'Small Claims in particular Parking Charge Notices.

http://elmslegal.co.uk/legal-services/nati...e-court-agency/
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 5 May 2017 - 07:59
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The "2010" contract that I assume mentions POFA, now that has to be worthy of some form of complaint to the IPC. Would be fun seeing if theyre willing to stick up for a member submitting fraudulent documents to court....
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PublicanPaul
post Fri, 5 May 2017 - 09:00
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QUOTE
Can you post a link to the case file you refer to?



http://www.civillitigationbrief.com/wp-con...to-see-case.pdf


Skeleton Defense Argument:

Attached File  MIL_v_Bennett___skeleton_defense_argument.pdf ( 252.72K ) Number of downloads: 108


This post has been edited by PublicanPaul: Fri, 5 May 2017 - 09:12
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lamilad
post Fri, 5 May 2017 - 09:45
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QUOTE
I had a recent case file relating to Elms Law and how they weren't actually a law firm/solicitors etc.


I noticed you posted the McShane case above. Is that the file your referring to in this comment?

This is interesting as RoA is something that is being used more and more in forum assisted cases. Your case could very useful in helping other people challenge this issue at their hearings.

Would you consider applying for the transcript so that others can use your case as evidence? Sounds like the judgement was fairly short so wouldn't cost a great deal (only need the judgement not the whole case)

Your transcript could help countless others and prevent thousands going into the pockets of scumbags like MiL and the others.

https://www.appletranscription.co.uk/court-transcription/
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