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90 on scottish motorway / D&G, NIP received, uk car but foreign license/company wrinkle
surfnode
post Thu, 20 Apr 2006 - 11:53
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Hi There,

I need some advice on a speeding offence.

1. The name of the Constabulary: Dumfries & Galloway
2. Date of the offence: X/4/06
3. Date of the NIP: X+3/4/06
4. Date you received the NIP:X+4/4/06
5. Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): A74(M) - looks accurate to me.
6. Was the NIP addressed to you?: Yes, but old address, former flatmate signed for it
7. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery?: rec'd del.
8. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle?: My company is the registered keeper. Wrinkle: Company is registered in a EU country, with no official address in the UK (I still work in abroad); the address of the dvla is for insurance purposes.
9. How many current points do you have? : none in UK; hold EU license from my time there (only moved to uk last year)
10. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.: Got caught by the D&G safety partnership on the motorway, van parked on a bridge. NIP says 90mph on a standard, 70mph limit motorway, contrary to section 89 of the RTRA 1984. Videographic evidence (D&G kit is detailed here: http://www.dgcommunity.net/dgcommunity/Min...45&openid=1245)

As hinted above, I still work abroad, but live in the uk (since last summer) and the car is registered to my company (eu one man ltd).

Qs:
1. I read the post about the scottish cases, and in particular D&G, which advises to go unsigned. I take it that still stands?.

2. The NIp was sent to a scottish address I used to register the car, but under the Company name first, then my name. If my partner identifies me and gives the foreign company address will that supersede the Uk address? Problem is that my name would be the same...

3. Does anybody know the process involving a foreign license in case I chicken out and accept the COFP? (this foreign licenses http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=10859 was not conclusive, and I have seen mentions on expat websites that no points are given, or rather registered in swansea but not linked with your foreign record). However, those websites also suggest that if you have a foreign license court proceedings are automatically initiated!

In summary: Is the process: somebody, eg my partner, fills out the NIP and retuns it unsigned, identifying me at a foreign address. I then might get a NIP there and do the same?

Thanks for help!
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post Thu, 20 Apr 2006 - 11:53
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jeffreyarcher
post Fri, 21 Apr 2006 - 01:41
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I am a bit confused regarding the addresses, and I suspect that the company may have committed some licencing offences. Only entities with a U.K. address may register vehicle. It appears that you have conspired with the company to circumvent the legislation.

QUOTE (surfnode)
If my partner identifies me and gives the foreign company address will that supersede the Uk address?

What makes you think that she can fill in the form?
If by partner, you mean f*ck buddy, and not a partner in the company, she does not fill in the form, it is not addressed to her.
Do you still reside with her? I.e. at the address on the V5C?
If you do, since it was sent by recorded delivery, it is deemed served (although, if she signed for it, as she is not your wife (I assume) the case law is a little fuzzy on that). However, since you obvioulsy know about it, you cannot deny service under oath, so the point is academic.
If you now live elsewhere, I suggest she return the envelope and contents with a covering letter giving your new address to arrive about day 28. Since she is not the addressee, there is no obligation on her to do anything, but since it was sent rec. del., there isn't much to be gained, as it is deemed to have been served anyway.
If you do reside at that address, it has been served on the addressee, full stop.
The big question then is, since the company is registered abroad, if it ignores the s172, what can the scammers do about it?
I would suggest nothing, however, there are two potential problems;
1) Somebody has committed a licencing offence by telling the lie that the company has a U.K. address.
2) Since you put your name on the V5C (why did you put your name on te V5C, thus doing away with the protection afforded by the ltd. co.?), I suspect that they would come after you personally, although that should be defendable because the obligation is the company's, not yours.

So, the choice would seem to be, either
a) The company ignores the notice, but see 1) & 2) above, or
b) It names you personally at your address (if you intend going unsigned, it would be better if someone else responded on behalf of the company). You can then go unsigned when you get yours, if you wish.

If you have a foreign licence, you are correct, you cannot get points (assuming that you do not have a U.K. counterparty).
Also, you cannot get a fixed penalty (COFP; £60 + 3 points), they have to take you to court. The fine is likely to be higher (~£100).

QUOTE (surfnode)
In summary: Is the process: somebody, eg my partner, fills out the NIP and retuns it unsigned, identifying me at a foreign address.

Leaving aside for the moment that she shouldn't fill in the form at all (unless she has some association with the company), naming you at foreign address, when you actually live in the U.K., is likely to be an attempt to pervert the course of justice, which carries a custodial sentence.
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surfnode
post Fri, 21 Apr 2006 - 13:46
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Jeffreyarcher - thanks for the detailed response, that cleared a few things up!

Sorry about the address business, it is confusing; i gave the original address because I bought the car when I didn't have an address yet, but forgotten to change it so far.

"I am a bit confused regarding the addresses, and I suspect that the company may have committed some licencing offences. Only entities with a U.K. address may register vehicle. It appears that you have conspired with the company to circumvent the legislation."

- ah, I didn't know that. The point was simply to run the car expenses through the company, and it seems a bit off that a EU company would not be allowed to run a uk car, but I wont argue. My name is on it for insurance purposes, or rather the company's name for expense purposes ;-).

So I guess I could just follow the normal procedure ignoring all the company business. Just get the former flatmate to fill it in, naming me at a uk address and not signing; it's going to go to court in the end anyway whatever because of the foreign license.

Naming me at a foreign address when I do admittedly have a uk address seems unnecessarily risky then re perverting the course of justice etc..

Anything I'm forgetting anything?

Thanks again, surfnode
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chill
post Sat, 22 Apr 2006 - 02:45
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Fri, 21 Apr 2006 - 01:41) *
The big question then is, since the company is registered abroad, if it ignores the s172, what can the scammers do about it?
I would suggest nothing, however, there are two potential problems;
1) Somebody has committed a licencing offence by telling the lie that the company has a U.K. address.
2) Since you put your name on the V5C (why did you put your name on te V5C, thus doing away with the protection afforded by the ltd. co.?), I suspect that they would come after you personally, although that should be defendable because the obligation is the company's, not yours.

<snip>

If you have a foreign licence, you are correct, you cannot get points (assuming that you do not have a U.K. counterparty).
Also, you cannot get a fixed penalty (COFP; £60 + 3 points), they have to take you to court. The fine is likely to be higher (~£100).

The benefit of using a foreign licence is when you are actually domiciled outside of the UK. I doubt the CPS would bother to take a motoring offence to court as it would be a complete waste of time.

Even if you had a UK counterparty, there is no connection between the two unless you decide to offer up such information (it should be impossible to register them both at the same address), so I can't see how points would be added to one.

QUOTE
Foreign drivers are at least as likely to offend as their UK counterparts. However, in all but very rare cases where they provide a UK agent for the service of a summons, they cannot, in effect be prosecuted. The Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Act 1990 makes it clear that failure to comply with a warrant served at an overseas address does not constitute contempt of any court or be a ground for issuing a warrant to secure the attendance of the person in question.
Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Act 1990 - Take a look at section 2 on that page - I would have thought this also applied to the secretary of a foreign domiciled company, which would cover the original V5 registration issues and potential S172 failures.

However if the DVLA get wind of this dodgy V5, they might invalidate the registration of that vehicle, which would cause you bigger problems with selling, insuring and taxing it in the future. You might want to take the points this time and subsequently get your V5 in order going forwards.


Forgot to mention this though which I found - Crime (International Co-operation) Bill - If this becomes law, then it would add an extra provision under point (7) below.

QUOTE
(5) If process requiring a person to appear as a party or attend as a witness is

served outside the United Kingdom, no obligation to comply with the process

under the law of the part of the United Kingdom in which the process is issued

or made is imposed by virtue of the service.

15
(6) Accordingly, failure to comply with the process does not constitute contempt

of court and is not a ground for issuing a warrant to secure the attendance of

the person in question.

(7) But the process may subsequently be served on the person in question in the

United Kingdom (with the usual consequences for non-compliance).
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jeffreyarcher
post Sun, 23 Apr 2006 - 00:39
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QUOTE (surfnode)
Just get the former flatmate to fill it in,

Assuming that she has no connection with the company, no; I have already told you that.
QUOTE (surfnode)
naming me at a uk address

As above plus; no; she gives the details of the company. If she names you, you will get one in your own name; you do not wish that, you wish the next recipient to be the company, who I understand are;
1) The RK, and
2) The addressee of this notice.
QUOTE (surfnode)
and not signing;

I don't know why you keep banging on about her not signing, as she was not the driver, it is irrelevent. In any case, as she is not the addressee of the notice, she should not fill in the form (unless she has some connection with the company, as above).
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jeffreyarcher
post Mon, 24 Apr 2006 - 02:40
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O.K., I've thought some more about this.
Assuming that she has no association with the company, nor has any current personal relationship with you, I would suggest that she returns the notice uncompleted, in the envelope it came in, along with a covering letter, to arrive about day 28, stating that neither the addressee (Acme Trading (Leichstentein) S.A.), nor Mr. Surfnode have any connection with this address any more.
This will probably result in a S172 notice in her own name. Because she has 28 days to respond, this will have generated another 28 days towards your time-out.
If she lives in Dumfries & Galloway, they may send some policmen out to verbally S172 her instead, however, if they do, there's nothing lost.
If they do, she should give them the company's registered address, and add that the company can be contacted via Mr. Surfnode at your address.
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surfnode
post Thu, 11 May 2006 - 13:10
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Mon, 24 Apr 2006 - 03:40) *
Assuming that she has no association with the company, nor has any current personal relationship with you, I would suggest that she returns the notice uncompleted, in the envelope it came in, along with a covering letter, to arrive about day 28, stating that neither the addressee (Acme Trading (Leichstentein) S.A.), nor Mr. Surfnode have any connection with this address any more.


Ok, interesting thought. I'll try that, It'll give me some breathing space anyway. Update to follow in due course. Thanks again.
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patdavies
post Thu, 11 May 2006 - 14:25
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Mon, 24 Apr 2006 - 03:40) *
If they do, she should give them the company's registered address, and add that the company can be contacted via Mr. Surfnode at your address.


I disagree here JA (Oh GOD, what am I doing unsure.gif unsure.gif sad.gif )

The company's registered address is its lawful address for service. She should give them nothing more than the company's registered address
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firefly
post Thu, 11 May 2006 - 20:33
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QUOTE (patdavies @ Thu, 11 May 2006 - 15:25) *
I disagree here JA (Oh GOD, what am I doing unsure.gif unsure.gif sad.gif )


biggrin.gif


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surfnode
post Tue, 27 Jun 2006 - 20:04
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Hi,

got some news.

Today the police came round looking for Mr Surfnode / my company at the former address. My former flatmate was away but his current flatmate was around and denied all knowledge of anything.

The copper left a note for the ex-flatmate saying "please contact west end police station [Edinburgh] at tel regarding inquiry", if possible before 10pm today and giving his name.

The expectation was that D&G would send out another NIP to my former flat mate and I could play for time. This was unexpected, and my ex flatmate is getting a bit nervous.

So, is this just D&G on a trip to Edinburgh or am I in more trouble than I thought? I have not changed the address at the DVLA yet, thinking if I do it now it will show up at the police immediately.

What is the best course of action?

Jeffreyarcher suggested that if policemen came in person my ex flatmate should "give them the company's registered address, and add that the company can be contacted via Mr. Surfnode at your address."

Ie my flatmate could ring the police and give them the registered company address (abroad) and my current edinburgh address as a c/o for the company?

Thanks for quick help. My ex-flatmate is ok with getting back to the police tomorrow, because he really did only come back late today for a trip which could easily have been later. However he would like to get it sorted (from his perspective) tomorrow.

Cheers, surfnode
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jeffreyarcher
post Tue, 27 Jun 2006 - 21:13
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QUOTE (surfnode)
So, is this just D&G on a trip to Edinburgh or am I in more trouble than I thought?

They will have asked Edinburgh police to go round. I wouldn't read too much into it; D&G sent some local coppers round to a North Yorkshire company who were late returning the notice.

QUOTE (surfnode)
"please

rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by jeffreyarcher: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 - 21:18
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surfnode
post Mon, 3 Jul 2006 - 12:04
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Hi,

in the end my ex-flatmate didn't manage to speak to the copper - he spoke to a colleague who then rang back (after passing on the message) saying "not to worry, he didn't need to speak to him for finishing his report" after all. WTF?

Anyhow, I'll see what comes next. I will update my registration details though, because I don't want to get into hot water for that as well.

Thanks for the help so far,

surfnode
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surfnode
post Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 13:00
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Hi Everyone,

quick update: it's now over 6 months and I haven't heard back from D&G. Yay! Assume I'm in the clear. hello2.gif

Special thanks to Jeffrey Archer who helped me to stay calm under fire when the police did pay a visit (unsuccessfully to my former flatmate).

Respect to the PePiPoo Team for creating such a useful resource - I took out membership!

Best wishes, surfnode
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