NIP - Help needed !!!!! Options

[superlight]

1. The name of the Constabulary: Humberside Police
2. Date of the offence: 11.02.06
3. Date of the NIP: 16.02.06
4. Date you received the NIP:17.02.06
5. Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): A63 Hull
6. Was the NIP addressed to you?: Initially sent to my employers - they replied with my name and address
7. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery?: First
8. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle?: No, company car
9. How many current points do you have? : Zero
10. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.: The road in question is a road used very regularly by myself and my partner, we are both unsure as to who was driving at the time - the car was recorded at 48mph in a 40mph zone.

I`m very new to all this so as much help as possible would be appreciated

Humberside police sent the initial NIP to my Employers (received 17.02.06). My Employers made me aware and returned the NIP with my details on. I received another NIP (1st class) on 24.02.06. I replied the next day stating I could not ascertain who was driving and requested a copy of the photographs.

They replied on 10.03.06 (1st class) stating the photographs were taken of the rear of the car and the driver could not be identified. They included another NIP stating I should identify the driver, if not they will proceed with Sect 172 of the RTA


Any help ideas would be most appreciated

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[andy_foster]

Read the We Can't Recall Who Was Driving thread in the FAQ

[superlight]

Many thanks Andy !!!

[superlight]

Can you shed some more light on the "timeout" Ive read about

How long should I leave it before replying etc??

I honestly don`t know who was driving so should I return the second NIP unsigned stating that I have tried to ascertain the driver ??

[andy_foster]

For a speeding prosecution, they have to lay an information with the court (for issuing a summons) within 6 months of the alleged offence.
To do this, (in theory at least) they need to know who was driving.

If you don't nominate a driver, you are likely to be summoned for that instead - and they'd have 6 months from the end of the 28 days after your NIP/s.172 was served.

[superlight]

So would the speeding be forgotten about and they`d pursue under sect 172??

What sort of fines / points do they issue if they prove who the driver was

[andy_foster]

So would the speeding be forgotten about and they`d pursue under sect 172??

Probably/usually/sometimes

What sort of fines / points do they issue if they prove who the driver was

Do you mean if they prosecute and convict for speeding? For 48 in a 40 expect 3 points. £60 fine and £35-£250 costs (depending on how much you piss them off).

[superlight]

what about fines / points for sect 172?

If they cant prove who was driving can they still prosecute me as the keeper of the car- -If it does go to court what is the usual outcome if I have shown that I have tried to ascertain who was driving ??

[andy_foster]

If convicted, 3 points (MS90 endorsement code), ~£250 fine £35-£80 costs.

If you have made every reasonable attempt to determine who was driving, provide a paper trail, and are a credible witness, you should be fine.

[firefly]

5. Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): A63 Hull

Are you sure this is what it says?

After all, the A63 runs for a considerable distance through Hull.

Read this thread.

This post has been edited by firefly: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 - 17:22

[superlight]

It simply states "On a road called the A63, Hull"

Is the exact location relevant then ???

[nemo]

It simply states "On a road called the A63, Hull"

Is the exact location relevant then ???

It could be if the 'A63 Hull' is more than 4 miles long...

The location of the alleged offence requires to be reasonably specific. The judgment in Young vs Day suggests a stated locus which is unspecific to the tune of 4 miles or greater should invalidate the NIP...

A notice of intended prosecution under s. 21 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, stated that the police were considering prosecuting the defendant for dangerous driving, among other offences, "at 7.40 p.m. on July 6, 1958, at Hothfield to Bethersden Road. It is alleged that while motor car No. MKJ 680 was being driven along the Hothfield to Bethersden Road in the direction of Hothfield the driver drove in such a manner that he narrowly avoided colliding with a motor car which was stationary on the offside of the road". The Hothfield to Bethersden Road was a minor road approximately four miles in length. The justices held that the notice was invalid in that it did not sufficiently specify where the offence was alleged to have been committed and dismissed the information. On appeal by the prosecutor,

HELD: that the police could have specified the place of the alleged offence more accurately and that it was impossible to say that there were no facts on which the justices could come to the conclusion to which they came, and, therefore, the appeal must be dismissed.

This post has been edited by nemo: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 - 21:00

[superlight]

The A63 is at least 15 miles long a runs right through the bottom of Hull !!!

Will that help my case ????

[nemo]

The A63 is at least 15 miles long a runs right through the bottom of Hull !!!

Will that help my case ????

Maybe...A good place to start is by having a read of these vague locus cases.

edit to change link to non-members' lounge

This post has been edited by nemo: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 - 21:18

[superlight]

So do you think I should argue against the location information or argue with them over sect 172??

[andy_foster]

So do you think I should argue against the location information or argue with them over sect 172??

Many people who say that they don't know who was driving, do know that they were driving, but understandably wish to avoid getting any points.
Many people who say that they don't know who was driving, simply don't know who was driving.

If you don't know who was driving, you should make all reasonable attempts to find out, but you shouldn't name yourself or anyone else if you aren't sure.

If you know who was driving, or if you find out who was driving, the vague locus argument sounds encouraging, and there are other s.172 arguements which can only work if you know who was driving.

[nemo]

So do you think I should argue against the location information or argue with them over sect 172??

In the first instance, you could try writing to them using Firefly's letter as a template. This will keep your options open, shall we say, whilst allowing you to shake the tree and see what drops..I have modded the letter slightly to allow for the stated locus and the fact that you are not the RK..

Date

Scammer Office
99 Acacia Avenue
Bumchester

Dear Sir/Madam

Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) Number - ********

With reference to the above notice (copy attached), and after taking legal advice, I am writing to inform you that the NIP I have been served has insufficient detail as to the alleged offence locus and, as such, is invalid.

Section 1-(1c)) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 states that in order for a NIP to be valid, the alleged offence locus must be given therein :

1-(1c)) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—

(i) in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the [1988 c. 52.] Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,

(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.

You will see from the NIP that the alleged offence locus is 'A63 Hull'. This is, unfortunately, excessively vague in order to identify the driver, as myself and the other driver on the day of the alleged offence were unaware of the incident in question, and as a consequence, cannot be sure unless more detail is given.

In Young v Day (1959) 123 J.P. 317, the Divisional Court refused to set aside a decision by the justices that a notice of intended prosecution under the Road Traffic Act 1930 s. 21 was insufficiently particular where it stated the place of the offence of dangerous driving as 'the Hothfield to Bethersden Road', which was a minor road four miles long. (Pope v. Clarke [1953] 1 W.L.R. 1060 followed).

It would appear therefore, that in order for the driver of the vehicle to be identified as per s.172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a new NIP requires to be issued, detailing the precise locus of the alleged offence. Once in receipt of this NIP, myself and the other driver on the day will try and establish the identity of the driver at the time of the alleged offence and respond when we have reached a conclusion.

Yours faithfully

This post has been edited by nemo: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 - 23:12

[superlight]

I`ve already explained to them that it was either my girlfriend or I that was driving !! Though we cant remember which was of us was driving at the time

Have I droppped a clanger ???

Do I need to ammend anything on the draft letter - or just put in the correct address and NIP number ???

[nemo]

I`ve already explained to them that it was either my girlfriend or I that was driving !! Though we cant remember which was of us was driving at the time

Have I droppped a clanger ???

If that's all that was said then no, not at all..

Do I need to ammend anything on the draft letter - or just put in the correct address and NIP number ???

Not as far as I can see. Just copy, paste into Word and edit the personal bits.

Make sure the letter is sent Royal Mail Special Delivery. Costs a bit extra but service and proof of receipt by the scammers is guaranteed..

[superlight]

thanks nemo !

Would you wait a bit or send it straight away ??