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Armtrac / BW ega
Robbo223
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:18
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I received a PCN from Armtrac in 2015 for parking outside a marked bay in a free car park, and at the time (foolishly or otherwise) wrote to them identifying myself and confirming my address, pointing out that under the then recently implemented "Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013" Armtract needed to give me a postal address which they didn't (and don't).

Just received preliminary notification from BW Legal four years later that they intend to pursue this to court, although I realise it isn't a formal Letter Before Action. As I am very out of date with these forums can someone advise me if I should just pay up for a quiet life or if there are grounds to fight? Various images below. Thanks!







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post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:18
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The Rookie
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:48
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Lots of grounds to fight, but you will almost certainly get to at least a court claim and submitting a defence stage as BW don't drop cases until they know they are on a loser.

Submit a SAR to Armtrac NOW for everything they have.

Get onto Penwryn council for the relevant Traffic Management Orders (if any) for the car park, if it's never been rescinded since the council subbed iit out (assuming one was in place before hand) then Armtrac don't have a leg to stand on.


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Redivi
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 15:28
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According to its website, the council leases or has a management arrangement for the car park

The situation appears identical to railway station car parks
If a parking contravention can be dealt with by a criminal fixed penalty, should a company issue a parking notice under contract law

The issue is particularly relevant here because both signs were displayed so which was the motorist to follow ?
Streetview shows a distinct absence of signs other than at the entrance

Why did they operative believe the vehicle wasn't wholly within a bay ?
Have you seen any photos ?

Demand them as part of the SAR

You've left your reference on the BWL letter

This post has been edited by Redivi: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 15:29
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tommypenny
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 16:40
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Isn't this a case of "not relevant land" under POFA? (if byelaws exist on it)
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The Rookie
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 18:01
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QUOTE (tommypenny @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 17:40) *
Isn't this a case of "not relevant land" under POFA? (if byelaws exist on it)

Why would byelaw exist in a car park?

It may not be relevant land by dint of who the occupier is or if a TMO is in place, but I doubt byelaws are in place.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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tommypenny
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 18:03
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Sorry, yes that's what I meant, if it's owned by the state/council then I would expect it to be deemed not relevant land due to the higher level of authority governing it/owning it
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Redivi
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 19:00
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If the council can, according to the sign, issue penalty notices, the car park cannot possibly be relevant land under POFA

This would only be possible if the council had repealed the parking place order but had failed to remove the sign

The question, however, is academic
The OP's already told Armtrac he was driving

Wasn't there a thread, possibly Port Isaac, where a council appointed a company to issue parking notices when it had no power to do so ?

This post has been edited by Redivi: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 19:00
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Robbo223
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 11:02
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Hi Guys

Thanks for the various comments posted. I appreciate the goodwill and expertise on these threads, so perhaps it would be best if I could ask a few specific questions:-

(1) has the demand for a geographical address as part of forming a contract been a successful defence in small claims courts (as per "Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013")?

(2) why would I wish to make an SAR of Armtrac? What would be the purpose of that?

(3) are there any other specific issues I can raise as part of a defence?

Armtrac are long gone from the car park concerned, there are no byelaws, so these aspects aren't of any help.

Thanks for your help everyone, Rob
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ManxRed
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 11:30
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Forget byelaws, if the car park used to be council operated then there will quite possibly be a Traffic Management Order, or more likely an off-street Parking Places Order.

Ask the Council.

If there is a TMO or PPO in place that hasn't been rescinded, then the land doesn't qualify as Relevant Land under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act, and the Registered Keeper cannot be held liable.


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 11:34
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 20:00) *
The question, however, is academic
The OP's already told Armtrac he was driving

It’s far from academic, Armtrac can’t contract with someone to break the law and pay them a charge if they do so, Armtrac would themselves be breaking the law by doing so.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Robbo223
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 13:08
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One further question - they have an old address for me - should I engage with BW Legal and point this out?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 08:22
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Are they using this address to send documents to you? Then of course you contact both BW legal and the PPC to REQUIRE that they update your
Address for service
to

And that they must ERASE the old address; you will hod them fully liable on the indemnity basis for ANY and ALL costs associated with rectifying the situaiton, should they incorrectly use a known bad service address.

The point of sending a SAR to ARmtrac is fairly obvious
It means you know EVERY document they have relating to you.
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Robbo223
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 10:29
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Hi folks

I updated BW Legal as to my correct service address, and today received a proper letter before claim from them. I was surprised to see that it has a form wanting to know about my financial situation etc.

Do I respond (if so how) or simply ignore until the court papers arrive? I have a clear multi-point defence in mind, and am pleased to read about the recent case last month where a DJ threw out a BW case for claiming the extra £60 on top of £100 (here).

Advice greatly appreciated!

Rob
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The Rookie
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 11:04
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You should reply to the LBA (unless you included a formal reply when you told them of the change of address).

Some of the information is on the standard PAP form, like financials, no need to complete that, but you may as well fill in anything that is relevant.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Robbo223
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 11:12
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OK, Thanks for this!
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Redivi
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 11:43
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I wouldn't fill in the financial section

It's only relevant if you agree that you owe the debt and want time to pay

Tick Box D that you dispute the debt and Box I that you want further information

There are other threads with examples of the information and documents that you want
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ManxRed
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 14:16
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Have the Council told you whether there is a TMO or PPO in place for the car park yet?


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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