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Bus Gate PCN but fined for Bus Lane?
msolly
post Fri, 14 Jun 2013 - 22:50
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Hello, on the 8/06/13 my sister received a PCN but i was driving the car (its in her name i mainly drive it)

We dont open her post but she came over today and she opened it and saw it.

Anyway thats just a brief background.

i have been caught in a Bus Gate during offensive times sitting at traffic lights.

I was not familiar with the bus gate or area im from London and was charged in sheffield. Thats irrelevant, here is the signage according to google maps that i would have seen but i cant remember what the state of these signs are to date.

Supposing i did see both signs to me they arent clear where exactly the bus gate operates and there is no signage other than on the floor that the bus gate starts, the markings on the floor are green and double yellow, driving around london im am very familiar with restricted routes being RED coloured.

To add to my confusion i have been fined for a bus lane violation although this is clearly a bus gate, the signage first shows "bus lane cameras" but the yellow one (shown in second image) states bus gate times and not neccessarily bus gate cameras...

I need to quickly get this appeal on the move do i even have a case? or should i just pay the £30 early fine. all help appreciated smile.gif


SIGN 1 (states bus lane)


SIGN 2 (states bus gate, no cameras)


NO MORE SIGNS BUT WILL HELP YOU SEE WHERE MY CAR WAS I WAS AT THE SECOND SET OF LIGHTS WHEN CCTV CAPTURED AND FINED ME


In my defence i do not feel the signage was clear but i cant remember what the current state of signage is and am just going off google

Middlewood Road Hillsborough corner.
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post Fri, 14 Jun 2013 - 22:50
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 16 Jun 2013 - 01:27
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We need to see all pages of the PCN, as ever, to help further.
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msolly
post Sun, 16 Jun 2013 - 03:28
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 16 Jun 2013 - 01:27) *
We need to see all pages of the PCN, as ever, to help further.


yes of course thanks smile.gif









This post has been edited by msolly: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 22:21
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Hippocrates
post Sun, 16 Jun 2013 - 08:37
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Need to see all page 1. Though a bus gate, authorities outside London can issue a code 34J as they cannot enforce moving traffic contraventions outside London.


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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msolly
post Sun, 16 Jun 2013 - 13:57
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QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Sun, 16 Jun 2013 - 08:37) *
Need to see all page 1. Though a bus gate, authorities outside London can issue a code 34J as they cannot enforce moving traffic contraventions outside London.


hi thanks for taking the time to reply smile.gif

ive photographed all of page 1? and all of page 2? that is all i recieved, have i blanked something out you need to see?
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msolly
post Mon, 17 Jun 2013 - 23:14
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hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal
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Hippocrates
post Mon, 17 Jun 2013 - 23:51
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QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:14) *
hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal

OK, leaving aside the PCN, I would make a representation as follows assuming the signas are in place as per your pictures:

1. There is inadequate signage warning of this restriction.

2. There is information erected on two separate signs.

3. There is no signage in place indicating the actual start of the restriction.

Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

Ask them for their Traffic Regulation Order and to explain why they have erected a yellow sign with different tiomes on it.

I never advise ringing a council: if you do, record it and get a name.

Come back later today to formulate a letter/e-mail.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 - 23:53


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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EDW
post Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:13
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QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:51) *
QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:14) *
hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal

OK, leaving aside the PCN, I would make a representation as follows assuming the signas are in place as per your pictures:

1. There is inadequate signage warning of this restriction.

2. There is information erected on two separate signs.

3. There is no signage in place indicating the actual start of the restriction.

Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

Ask them for their Traffic Regulation Order and to explain why they have erected a yellow sign with different tiomes on it.

I never advise ringing a council: if you do, record it and get a name.

Come back later today to formulate a letter/e-mail.



The correct sign should be

TRAM
BUS (LOCAL)
CYCLE

ONLY PLATE BELOW

I think the road marking is
TRAM
&
BUS ONLY?

This post has been edited by EDW: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:18
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kommando
post Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 08:28
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You need to hide the PIN number on page 2.
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msolly
post Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 22:37
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QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 17 Jun 2013 - 23:51) *
QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:14) *
hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal

OK, leaving aside the PCN, I would make a representation as follows assuming the signas are in place as per your pictures:

1. There is inadequate signage warning of this restriction.

2. There is information erected on two separate signs.

3. There is no signage in place indicating the actual start of the restriction.

Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

Ask them for their Traffic Regulation Order and to explain why they have erected a yellow sign with different tiomes on it.

I never advise ringing a council: if you do, record it and get a name.

Come back later today to formulate a letter/e-mail.



QUOTE (EDW @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:13) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:51) *
QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:14) *
hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal

OK, leaving aside the PCN, I would make a representation as follows assuming the signas are in place as per your pictures:

1. There is inadequate signage warning of this restriction.

2. There is information erected on two separate signs.

3. There is no signage in place indicating the actual start of the restriction.

Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

Ask them for their Traffic Regulation Order and to explain why they have erected a yellow sign with different tiomes on it.

I never advise ringing a council: if you do, record it and get a name.

Come back later today to formulate a letter/e-mail.



The correct sign should be

TRAM
BUS (LOCAL)
CYCLE

ONLY PLATE BELOW

I think the road marking is
TRAM
&
BUS ONLY?



QUOTE (kommando @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 08:28) *
You need to hide the PIN number on page 2.


thank you for all of you're replies here was my representation sent off today smile.gif

QUOTE
Hello, i must apologise for the delay in writing this appeal against the alleged contravention stated in this PCN.

I am appealing this contravention on the basis that it did not occur for the following reason:

#1: I believe there is inadequate signage leading up to the restriction, depending on where you join middlewood road to head in the direction i was.

#2: There is information erected on two separate signs, whilst one states the blue oval with bus, cycles and taxi only the second doesn't, and immediately before the restriction is erected a weigh restriction. To a driver trying to observe all signs and warnings this becomes very confusing especially during peak times when a drivers focus cannot be purely on signage, but care for pedestrians too. With clear signs and accurate signage the alleged contravention would not occur, ever.

#3: there is NO signage, whatsoever to warn signs exactly when the restriction starts, this alone adds to the confusion, and misleading information given to drivers and myself on this occasion.

I am a very careful driver, and I always try to do the right thing, i am not out to break rules and regulation and infact i am more than happy to abide by them so long as the enforcing body (yourselves) makes it crystal clear that a restriction or enforced area is what i am about to enter.

Finally, the PCN states i am in a "bus lane" adding to the confusion of your signage i am not in a bus lane it is in fact a bus gate, but prior to this your signage mentions bus lane and bus gate and to be quite frank which of the two is it? It certainly isnt a bus lane from my understanding, this is another reason why the alleged contravention "being in a bus lane" did not occur in my honest and humble opinion.

If at all possible i would like to see a copy of your traffic regulation order and why you have chosen to erect a yellow sign with a different set of times on it word for word.

Furthermore, Trams pass through this stretch of road and at no point does any signage give permission for a tram to pass either i assume they are being penalised each time?

The signs clearly state CYCLE, BUS, TAXI. (not that it is clear when these restrictions start) but i have not seen a tram sign or verbiage to give them way of rights either.

I look forward to hearing your response and i hope this finds you well,

As stated i am an honest driver and follow the code, but without correct guidance from yourselves i find it hard to understand how i am meant to follow your rules.

Warmest Regards,
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Hippocrates
post Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 22:45
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Posts: 9,876
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QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 23:37) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 17 Jun 2013 - 23:51) *
QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:14) *
hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal

OK, leaving aside the PCN, I would make a representation as follows assuming the signas are in place as per your pictures:

1. There is inadequate signage warning of this restriction.

2. There is information erected on two separate signs.

3. There is no signage in place indicating the actual start of the restriction.

Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

Ask them for their Traffic Regulation Order and to explain why they have erected a yellow sign with different tiomes on it.

I never advise ringing a council: if you do, record it and get a name.

Come back later today to formulate a letter/e-mail.



QUOTE (EDW @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:13) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:51) *
QUOTE (msolly @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 00:14) *
hi just wondering if anyone has some information on this as i have to call the council tomorrow to pay/appeal

OK, leaving aside the PCN, I would make a representation as follows assuming the signas are in place as per your pictures:

1. There is inadequate signage warning of this restriction.

2. There is information erected on two separate signs.

3. There is no signage in place indicating the actual start of the restriction.

Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

Ask them for their Traffic Regulation Order and to explain why they have erected a yellow sign with different tiomes on it.

I never advise ringing a council: if you do, record it and get a name.

Come back later today to formulate a letter/e-mail.



The correct sign should be

TRAM
BUS (LOCAL)
CYCLE

ONLY PLATE BELOW

I think the road marking is
TRAM
&
BUS ONLY?



QUOTE (kommando @ Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 08:28) *
You need to hide the PIN number on page 2.


thank you for all of you're replies here was my representation sent off today smile.gif

QUOTE
Hello, i must apologise for the delay in writing this appeal against the alleged contravention stated in this PCN.

I am appealing this PCN on the basis that it did not occur for the following reason:

#1: I believe there is inadequate signage leading up to the restriction, depending on where you join middlewood road to head in the direction i was.

#2: There is information erected on two separate signs, whilst one states the blue oval with bus, cycles and taxi only the second doesn't, and immediately before the restriction is erected a weigh restriction. To a driver trying to observe all signs and warnings this becomes very confusing especially during peak times when a drivers focus cannot be purely on signage, but care for pedestrians too. With clear signs and accurate signage the alleged contravention would not occur, ever.

#3: there is NO signage, whatsoever to warn signs exactly when the restriction starts, this alone adds to the confusion, and misleading information given to drivers and myself on this occasion.

I am a very careful driver, and I always try to do the right thing, i am not out to break rules and regulation and infact i am more than happy to abide by them so long as the enforcing body (yourselves) makes it crystal clear that a restriction or enforced area is what i am about to enter.

Finally, the PCN states i am in a "bus lane" adding to the confusion of your signage i am not in a bus lane it is in fact a bus gate, but prior to this your signage mentions bus lane and bus gate and to be quite frank which of the two is it? It certainly isnt a bus lane from my understanding, this is another reason why the alleged contravention "being in a bus lane" did not occur in my honest and humble opinion.

If at all possible I would like to see a copy of your traffic regulation order and why you have chosen to erect a yellow sign with a different set of times on it word for word.

Furthermore, trams pass through this stretch of road and at no point does any signage give permission for a tram to pass either i assume they are being penalised each time?

The signs clearly state CYCLE, BUS, TAXI. (not that it is clear when these restrictions start) but i have not seen a tram sign or verbiage to give them way of rights either.

I look forward to hearing your response and i hope this finds you well,

As stated i am an honest driver and follow the code, but without correct guidance from yourselves i find it hard to understand how i am meant to follow your rules.

I require that you cancel the PCN forthwith.

Warmest Regards,



In red: take out.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 - 22:46


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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msolly
post Wed, 19 Jun 2013 - 12:47
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Hi I had already sent it I hope this wont matter too much?
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Jonah13
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 23:41
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Hi Msolly,

I know it was a few years back, but did you reverse the fine? It’s just I’m having to go through same now.

Thanks
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