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[NIP Wizard] No valid insurance
coke_zero
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:44
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Met police
Date of the offence: - 17/1/18
Date of the NIP: - 17/1/18
Date you received the NIP: Verbally
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Swandon way SW11
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Yes
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Brother of the registered keeper
How many current points do you have? - 9
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

Was driving home in my sisters car from doing some shopping - went to refill fuel at petrol station and there was a marked police car sitting there. After I paid, I was approached by the police car and asked who the car belonged to as it's registered to a female. Told them it was my sisters car and they did their checks. They came back and said I am not insured on her policy which, I am not. I have my own insurance policy on my own car and I was not aware that I was not allowed to drive other vehicles. I confirmed with the insurance company over the phone when I took the policy out that I'd be able to drive other vehicles and I was told I would be able to. My mistake but I never actually checked the policy documents as they were never posted to me but were all available online. Had a long conversation with the officers explaining the entire situation to them. They told me the car would be impounded but my sister was on her way home and asked the officers over the phone if she could come to collect the car to avoid it being impounded. They were very reluctant at first but eventually had another call to attend to so left me there with the car to wait for my sister - then told me they'd check that I didn't end up driving it again lol.

I know I probably don't have much luck and my only option would be to take the points but since I already have 9 points this will mean an automatic totting up ban. Would it be worth going to court (perhaps with a motoring solicitor) to argue the case that I was under the impression that I was insured or perhaps ask for a lesser ban like 2 weeks rather than the 6 months.

I'm responsible for taking my mother to her hospital appointments since she's of elderly age and not in the greatest of conditions so it would be a major inconvenience to our lives as I'd have to accompany her by public transport or pay for a cab to take her there and back a few times a week.

Input would be greatly appreciated.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
- Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 17:44:27 +0000

This post has been edited by coke_zero: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:55
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post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:44
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 21:56
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QUOTE (coke_zero @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 18:23) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (coke_zero @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:24) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:20) *
Was the pull by the police within the twelve months of the original policy, or after renewal?

Presumably the issue you may hit is if it is after renewal even if the insurance company agree you should have had DOV cover for that year, they will claim you should have read your renewal documents subsequently.
Unfortunately, it was not. The policy was renewed on 8/1/18. Apparently this insurance company does not offer the option to drive other vehicles at all. Is there any action I can take against them if indeed the salesperson misled me by saying I was able to?

You need to make a formal complaint ASAP. Would you have bought the policy if they had told you they didn't offer cover to drive other vehicles?
Should I wait until I receive correspondence from them before making a formal complaint? And I would not have bought the policy had I know I would not be covered to drive other vehicles. I was stopped for driving without insurance Jan 2017 which landed me 6 points but I accept full responsibility for that so I needed to ensure I was able to drive other vehicles with this policy.

If you wouldn't have bought the policy but for the wrong information provided by the insurer, that is basically insurance misselling.

At this point I would raise a formal complaint with the insurance company, explaining the circumstances and explaining that, had you not been given the information that you were given by the sales person on the phone, you wouldn't have bought the policy at all. Ask for a copy of the call recording in any event, and let's see what they come back with. If they confirm that in the circumstances they would have covered you, you have a cast iron defence to any allegation of no insurance. If they refuse to confirm cover, post their response on here and we'll advise.

If you want to fight this (and bearing in mind that if push come to shove, the Financial Ombudsman can force the insurance company to provide cover), the logical step is to plead not guilty to the SJPN. If the matter goes to a normal court hearing before the complaint (and if need be the Financial Ombudsman) has reached a final resolution, you should ask for an adjournment on the basis that the Financial Ombudsman is the most appropriate forum to determine whether, in the event of a claim, the insurance company would have been liable (At the end of the day the Financial Ombudsmen are experts in private contract / insurance law, the magistrates are not).


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 21:57
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 17:26) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 12:39) *
If the contract, as agreed by both parties, included DOV, then the accuracy of the documents would be of little significance. An error in the documentation (caught by the policyholder or not) would not alter the agreed terms of the contract. The OP's difficulty will be in establishing that the contract indeed included DOV. If this company "never offers DOV", then somebody's made a big mistake...

The conversation was regarding cover for the initial twelve months.

A new contract is formed if a policy holder accept a renewal quote.

If the insurance renewal letter included a phrase along the lines of "if you renew everything will stay exactly the same" then the conversation would still be relevant, but normally the letter tells you to check the policy documents. The policy documents would apparently have excluded DOV.

Not that a complaint isn't worthwhile, the insurance company may agree to cover out of goodwill or to avoid ombudsman fees. But I don't think they will accept that a sales call was a commitment for every subsequent year of the policy.

Sorry, I read the thread too quickly. Yes, you're right. The "renewal" is usually considered a separate policy, so there wouldn't be any parol evidence with respect to the second policy. Still may be worth continuing with the complaint, if only to confirm what the original policy had included, but I have less hope now for a favourable outcome for the OP.

--Churchmouse
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Tartarus
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 08:21
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While yes the renewal is a separate policy, you don't expect changes made between them without notice, certainly while I've checked my renewals, I've always had the same excesses, third party rights etc from one year to another.
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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 13:20
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QUOTE (Tartarus @ Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 09:21) *
While yes the renewal is a separate policy, you don't expect changes made between them without notice, certainly while I've checked my renewals, I've always had the same excesses, third party rights etc from one year to another.

The overarching principle is did the insurance company treat the customer fairly? If not, the ombudsman can overrule the terms and conditions anyway, if in his opinion that is the right thing to do.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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coke_zero
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 18:03
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Alright so I've made an inquiry with my insurance company via e-mail so it's in writing. I tried to get them on the phone but I was on hold for more than 45 minutes and eventually just gave up - I'll give them another go later on or tomorrow.

In regards to pleading not guilty - would this be a good decision to make? As I don't want to end up going to court on my own to make a representation (the anxiety just thinking about it is killing me as I know how ruthless the magistrates can be)
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Jlc
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 18:14
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The idea behind pleading not guilty is to delay matters to a hearing. You can change your plea to guilty at a later date.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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coke_zero
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 19:16
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 18:14) *
The idea behind pleading not guilty is to delay matters to a hearing. You can change your plea to guilty at a later date.
Ah okay, I understand. Wouldn't doing so over time, incur more costs? This whole thing is just extra unnecessary stress
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coke_zero
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 16:13
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Hey guys, so I'm still waiting on a reply from the insurance policy but I've had a double read over my renewal documents - the policy schedule and certificate that was issued to me on 8/1/18.

It does not actually state anywhere in these documents that I'm not allowed to drive other vehicles (unless I'm being daft). I've added pictures of both documents with sensitive information blocked out. Any input on this would be very much appreciated.



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Jlc
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 16:25
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You are being daft.

DOV would need to be explicit. Did the previous year include it explicitly?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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coke_zero
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 16:39
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Ah okay. I wasn't aware that it had to be stated explicitly. Looking at the previous year, it doesn't state it either. There's just a difference on the endorsements section that adds windscreen cover, EU cover, key cover etc.
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Jlc
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 17:24
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You need that audio recording...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 20:38
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 18:24) *
You need that audio recording...

+1


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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panther12
post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 13:13
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I see the words XS Direct which I've read alot of horror stories about. Their cheaper premiums for younger drivers or high end cars at the cost you having to pay thousands in excess in the event of a claim. Just reading their policy online, regarding DOV it says:
QUOTE
Driving other cars
Your policy does not provide Drive Other Car cover. Please ensure you take out alternative
insurance if you are using any other vehicle not covered under your policy


I see yours is a £3k "ALL SECTIONS" excess. Just make sure you fully understand how these sharks operate.

This post has been edited by panther12: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 13:29
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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 15:51
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QUOTE (panther12 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 14:13) *
I see the words XS Direct which I've read alot of horror stories about. Their cheaper premiums for younger drivers or high end cars at the cost you having to pay thousands in excess in the event of a claim. Just reading their policy online, regarding DOV it says:
QUOTE
Driving other cars
Your policy does not provide Drive Other Car cover. Please ensure you take out alternative
insurance if you are using any other vehicle not covered under your policy


I see yours is a £3k "ALL SECTIONS" excess. Just make sure you fully understand how these sharks operate.

If I could have a £20k excess to pay £20 a year insurance, I'd snap it up straight away. Depends what you're looking for really.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 15:51


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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dacouc
post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 18:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 16:51) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 14:13) *
I see the words XS Direct which I've read alot of horror stories about. Their cheaper premiums for younger drivers or high end cars at the cost you having to pay thousands in excess in the event of a claim. Just reading their policy online, regarding DOV it says:
QUOTE
Driving other cars
Your policy does not provide Drive Other Car cover. Please ensure you take out alternative
insurance if you are using any other vehicle not covered under your policy


I see yours is a £3k "ALL SECTIONS" excess. Just make sure you fully understand how these sharks operate.

If I could have a £20k excess to pay £20 a year insurance, I'd snap it up straight away. Depends what you're looking for really.


This particular excess also applies when a third party claims against you eg even if there is no damage to your own vehicle, if the third party claims against you, XS Direct will seek £3k excess from you.

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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 19:20
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QUOTE (dacouc @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 19:17) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 16:51) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 14:13) *
I see the words XS Direct which I've read alot of horror stories about. Their cheaper premiums for younger drivers or high end cars at the cost you having to pay thousands in excess in the event of a claim. Just reading their policy online, regarding DOV it says:
QUOTE
Driving other cars
Your policy does not provide Drive Other Car cover. Please ensure you take out alternative
insurance if you are using any other vehicle not covered under your policy


I see yours is a £3k "ALL SECTIONS" excess. Just make sure you fully understand how these sharks operate.

If I could have a £20k excess to pay £20 a year insurance, I'd snap it up straight away. Depends what you're looking for really.


This particular excess also applies when a third party claims against you eg even if there is no damage to your own vehicle, if the third party claims against you, XS Direct will seek £3k excess from you.

As I said, if I could have a policy for £20 a year based on a £20k excess in those terms, I'd be fine with that.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 19:21


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 21:13
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Looking at this I had a quick look at my certificate from Churchill, and the relevant information is in the section "Person or classes of persons entitled to drive".

Mine has a clause "The Policyholder may also drive with the owner's permission a motor car not belonging to the Policyholder and not hired or leased to the Policyholder under a hire purchase or annual leasing agreement"

If your insurance had such cover, it would be in the relevant section on your certificate. As it's not there, you aren't covered for such driving.

Of course, if when you asked specifically about this when taking out the policy and were told such cover was included, that is another matter. However they normally always put in a get-out in the documents covering letter by saying you should examine the policy to make sure it covers your needs. Clearly in your case it doesn't ! At one time a clause like I have was always in any policy I took out, almost automatic, one could say, but the competitive pressures are now such that many insurers don't include it unless requested.

Insurance for business use is also sometimes misunderstood. Too many people think it just covers commercial travelling and use in a business they might own, but lots of people may use a car to go to a meeting at another office of their employer not realising this is business use. When my daughter got a job which involved travelling to sites, I made sure she took out business use. Funnily enough, it is not wildly expensive over a domestic policy, as when I retired my premium didn't diminish all that much, (about £40 less as I remember).

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 21:14
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panther12
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 15:42
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 16:51) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 14:13) *
I see the words XS Direct which I've read alot of horror stories about. Their cheaper premiums for younger drivers or high end cars at the cost you having to pay thousands in excess in the event of a claim. Just reading their policy online, regarding DOV it says:
QUOTE
Driving other cars
Your policy does not provide Drive Other Car cover. Please ensure you take out alternative
insurance if you are using any other vehicle not covered under your policy


I see yours is a £3k "ALL SECTIONS" excess. Just make sure you fully understand how these sharks operate.

If I could have a £20k excess to pay £20 a year insurance, I'd snap it up straight away. Depends what you're looking for really.

Yes it's fine for those who have quick access to 20k should need be in the event of a 3rd party claim.
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BaggieBoy
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 16:57
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QUOTE (panther12 @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 16:42) *
Yes it's fine for those who have quick access to 20k should need be in the event of a 3rd party claim.

Huh? The excess isn't due for 3rd party claims. only self claims.
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panther12
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 17:15
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 17:57) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 16:42) *
Yes it's fine for those who have quick access to 20k should need be in the event of a 3rd party claim.

Huh? The excess isn't due for 3rd party claims. only self claims.

The excess is payable on any kind of claim whether you're claiming for own damage or a 3rd party claim. It's "all sections excess". In the event of a succesful 3rd party claim, the insurer pays them out and recovers the excess amount from you. That's what a lot of people who take out this kind of policy don't realise the implications and find themselves straddled with thousands of debt.
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