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[NIP Wizard] No valid insurance
coke_zero
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:44
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Met police
Date of the offence: - 17/1/18
Date of the NIP: - 17/1/18
Date you received the NIP: Verbally
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Swandon way SW11
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Yes
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Brother of the registered keeper
How many current points do you have? - 9
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

Was driving home in my sisters car from doing some shopping - went to refill fuel at petrol station and there was a marked police car sitting there. After I paid, I was approached by the police car and asked who the car belonged to as it's registered to a female. Told them it was my sisters car and they did their checks. They came back and said I am not insured on her policy which, I am not. I have my own insurance policy on my own car and I was not aware that I was not allowed to drive other vehicles. I confirmed with the insurance company over the phone when I took the policy out that I'd be able to drive other vehicles and I was told I would be able to. My mistake but I never actually checked the policy documents as they were never posted to me but were all available online. Had a long conversation with the officers explaining the entire situation to them. They told me the car would be impounded but my sister was on her way home and asked the officers over the phone if she could come to collect the car to avoid it being impounded. They were very reluctant at first but eventually had another call to attend to so left me there with the car to wait for my sister - then told me they'd check that I didn't end up driving it again lol.

I know I probably don't have much luck and my only option would be to take the points but since I already have 9 points this will mean an automatic totting up ban. Would it be worth going to court (perhaps with a motoring solicitor) to argue the case that I was under the impression that I was insured or perhaps ask for a lesser ban like 2 weeks rather than the 6 months.

I'm responsible for taking my mother to her hospital appointments since she's of elderly age and not in the greatest of conditions so it would be a major inconvenience to our lives as I'd have to accompany her by public transport or pay for a cab to take her there and back a few times a week.

Input would be greatly appreciated.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
- Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 17:44:27 +0000

This post has been edited by coke_zero: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:55
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post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 17:44
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:17
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QUOTE (coke_zero @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:44) *
I confirmed with the insurance company over the phone when I took the policy out that I'd be able to drive other vehicles and I was told I would be able to.

This conversation is key. Have now checked your insurance documents? Even if they don't allow you to drive other cars, I would make a complaint on the basis that you were mislead during the sales call. If you can get the insurance company to confirm that they would have covered you in the circumstances, you have a cast iron defence. If the insurance company don't play ball, escalate it to the financial ombudsman (we can help with that if need be). I would start by making a request, under GDPR, for a copy of that sales call.

Having said that, it's not apparent at this stage that you are facing any impending police action. Did the officers give you any paperwork, or have you received anything in the post?



--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:46
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In terms of any totting ban, if it goes that far, then you can submit an exceptional hardship plea to reduce the ban - potentially to none.

But you have to pursue the insurer as above to bottom out the DOV situation.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Slapdash
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:59
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It may be worth, now, requesting a transcript of the call and its recording.

D'oh. Missed the earlier post.

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 19:01
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coke_zero
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:17) *
QUOTE (coke_zero @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 18:44) *
I confirmed with the insurance company over the phone when I took the policy out that I'd be able to drive other vehicles and I was told I would be able to.

This conversation is key. Have now checked your insurance documents? Even if they don't allow you to drive other cars, I would make a complaint on the basis that you were mislead during the sales call. If you can get the insurance company to confirm that they would have covered you in the circumstances, you have a cast iron defence. If the insurance company don't play ball, escalate it to the financial ombudsman (we can help with that if need be). I would start by making a request, under GDPR, for a copy of that sales call.

Having said that, it's not apparent at this stage that you are facing any impending police action. Did the officers give you any paperwork, or have you received anything in the post?
I have received the SJPN today - was posted out yesterday. Would they still have a copy of the sales call? I took out the insurance in January of 2017 and it just automatically renewed this year without requiring any further correspondence or calls. I am adamant that this was the situation and I am 99% certain I confirmed it over the phone with the salesperson however I am afraid of the insurance company coming back and saying no such agreement was made - what will be my option in that situation?

Also, under the new GDPR legislation, I understand it can sometimes be a lengthy process for the other party to get back to you as I've had to ask for specific documents from other places. Would I be able to ask the court to delay the process?
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Jlc
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 19:10
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If this happened in January then you should have been far more proactive!

You can ask for the SJP to be referred to a normal court hearing to delay matters.

In regards to a SAR then you should be submitting this ASAP (now under GDPR). It is free and they have to respond within statutory timeframes. It is likely they have a lengthy retention on phone calls where legal action is possible but you'll have to see.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 19:11


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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coke_zero
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 19:15
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Yes, I know I should have been more proactive but I completely forgot about this whole thing. I was in the middle of some dark times during January so this was not my first concern. This is the first piece of correspondence I have received since the whole incident - Had I received it earlier or received a conditional offer, I would have definitely pursued the insurance company much earlier.

I will contact the insurance company ASAP. Worst case they have no phone calls on retention then I am pretty much in a very sticky situation as I won't be able to prove anything to the court :/

I appreciate all you guys taking the time out to assist on this matter.
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Slapdash
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 19:19
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They should have the recordings. But yes it may take some time. Hence why "now".

Personally I would have been inclined to start the process immediately after the event
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 22:06
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The retention period for this sort of thing tends to be a few years at least. Since the PPI scandal the insurance industry has become a lot better at retaining evidence of sales calls.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:20
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Was the pull by the police within the twelve months of the original policy, or after renewal?

Presumably the issue you may hit is if it is after renewal even if the insurance company agree you should have had DOV cover for that year, they will claim you should have read your renewal documents subsequently.


--------------------
My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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coke_zero
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:24
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:20) *
Was the pull by the police within the twelve months of the original policy, or after renewal?

Presumably the issue you may hit is if it is after renewal even if the insurance company agree you should have had DOV cover for that year, they will claim you should have read your renewal documents subsequently.
Unfortunately, it was not. The policy was renewed on 8/1/18. Apparently this insurance company does not offer the option to drive other vehicles at all. Is there any action I can take against them if indeed the salesperson misled me by saying I was able to?
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ford poplar
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:44
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Not if the Insurer will not confirm they are prepared to cover you at time.
If Mum relies on you for hospital visits why are you reliant on your sister's inadequately insured car, if you have your own car?
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coke_zero
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 02:27
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:44) *
Not if the Insurer will not confirm they are prepared to cover you at time.
If Mum relies on you for hospital visits why are you reliant on your sister's inadequately insured car, if you have your own car?
I'm not reliant on her car. My car was parked at home due to a flat tyre at the time. So I decided to use my sisters since she was at work - had been using it the whole week under the impression I was okay to. Nonetheless, I immediately repaired mine after this incident.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 05:30
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Well you need to start a formal complaint ASAFP with the insurer, you could plead not guilty to give yourself some time but if they make you take it to the ombudsman you’ve already blown it. Your only chance was to get into this much earlier.

Which insurer? All I know of offer DOV cover, just not on all policies and it’s now almost all insurers restrict it to over 25’s.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 05:30


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 09:42
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QUOTE (coke_zero @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:24) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:20) *
Was the pull by the police within the twelve months of the original policy, or after renewal?

Presumably the issue you may hit is if it is after renewal even if the insurance company agree you should have had DOV cover for that year, they will claim you should have read your renewal documents subsequently.
Unfortunately, it was not. The policy was renewed on 8/1/18. Apparently this insurance company does not offer the option to drive other vehicles at all. Is there any action I can take against them if indeed the salesperson misled me by saying I was able to?

You need to make a formal complaint ASAP. Would you have bought the policy if they had told you they didn't offer cover to drive other vehicles?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 11:39
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:20) *
Was the pull by the police within the twelve months of the original policy, or after renewal?

Presumably the issue you may hit is if it is after renewal even if the insurance company agree you should have had DOV cover for that year, they will claim you should have read your renewal documents subsequently.

If the contract, as agreed by both parties, included DOV, then the accuracy of the documents would be of little significance. An error in the documentation (caught by the policyholder or not) would not alter the agreed terms of the contract. The OP's difficulty will be in establishing that the contract indeed included DOV. If this company "never offers DOV", then somebody's made a big mistake...

The ombudsman would be in a position to require the insurer to examine the recording of the conversation between the OP and the insurer, but as mentioned above, the first step would be to ask the insurer to confirm coverage, and if they refuse, file a formal complaint with the insurer, and only if the insurer then declines to help, file a complaint with the ombudsman. Obtaining a confirmation of coverage letter only after a conviction for no insurance would be rather frustrating.

--Churchmouse
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 16:26
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 12:39) *
If the contract, as agreed by both parties, included DOV, then the accuracy of the documents would be of little significance. An error in the documentation (caught by the policyholder or not) would not alter the agreed terms of the contract. The OP's difficulty will be in establishing that the contract indeed included DOV. If this company "never offers DOV", then somebody's made a big mistake...

The conversation was regarding cover for the initial twelve months.

A new contract is formed if a policy holder accept a renewal quote.

If the insurance renewal letter included a phrase along the lines of "if you renew everything will stay exactly the same" then the conversation would still be relevant, but normally the letter tells you to check the policy documents. The policy documents would apparently have excluded DOV.

Not that a complaint isn't worthwhile, the insurance company may agree to cover out of goodwill or to avoid ombudsman fees. But I don't think they will accept that a sales call was a commitment for every subsequent year of the policy.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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coke_zero
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 17:23
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 05:30) *
Well you need to start a formal complaint ASAFP with the insurer, you could plead not guilty to give yourself some time but if they make you take it to the ombudsman you’ve already blown it. Your only chance was to get into this much earlier.

Which insurer? All I know of offer DOV cover, just not on all policies and it’s now almost all insurers restrict it to over 25’s.
I'm 27 and the insurer is A Choice


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (coke_zero @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:24) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:20) *
Was the pull by the police within the twelve months of the original policy, or after renewal?

Presumably the issue you may hit is if it is after renewal even if the insurance company agree you should have had DOV cover for that year, they will claim you should have read your renewal documents subsequently.
Unfortunately, it was not. The policy was renewed on 8/1/18. Apparently this insurance company does not offer the option to drive other vehicles at all. Is there any action I can take against them if indeed the salesperson misled me by saying I was able to?

You need to make a formal complaint ASAP. Would you have bought the policy if they had told you they didn't offer cover to drive other vehicles?
Should I wait until I receive correspondence from them before making a formal complaint? And I would not have bought the policy had I know I would not be covered to drive other vehicles. I was stopped for driving without insurance Jan 2017 which landed me 6 points but I accept full responsibility for that so I needed to ensure I was able to drive other vehicles with this policy.
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Redivi
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 17:24
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I remember reading a newspaper survey (think it was last year) that found that the vast majority of motorists believed that fully comprehensive insurance policies included DOV and were unaware that companies have been removing it

This mistaken belief is also IIRC one of the most common reasons for no valid insurance prosecutions

Has your sister been prosecuted for allowing you to drive the vehicle, which is also a 6 point offence ?
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coke_zero
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 17:41
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 17:24) *
I remember reading a newspaper survey (think it was last year) that found that the vast majority of motorists believed that fully comprehensive insurance policies included DOV and were unaware that companies have been removing it

This mistaken belief is also IIRC one of the most common reasons for no valid insurance prosecutions

Has your sister been prosecuted for allowing you to drive the vehicle, which is also a 6 point offence ?
While that sounds reassuring, I don't think that argument would play well in court lol as it's down to me to ensure everything was correct. Perhaps I could get more advice from a motoring lawyer on that matter though.

And no she hasn't been. The police did ask me to call her as they wanted to speak to her - they had asked if she was aware that I had taken her car out and that was the end of it. She never received anything in the post and they weren't there anymore when she came to collect the car.
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