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Council Parking PCN - paid via app but for old car, obviously my mistake, but will the council refund the parking fee?
nish81
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 00:12
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Hi,

I don't believe this topic needs any photos or copies of the PCN as I am not disputing the facts. I parked in a Camden paid parking bay and paid via the RingGo app, however I accidentally paid for an older car's registration number, which the app has saved. (I was in a hurry to a hospital appointment, if stuff like that makes any difference). I came back and saw a PCN and realised my mistake after checking my receipt from RingGo. This is obviously my mistake, but I was hoping that either:

1) the council would cancel the PCN if I show them proof of having paid for an old car by mistake
2) the council would refund my £9 parking charge (which I paid by mistake for the old car), even though I have to pay the PCN

Or are neither of these possible in this case?

Thanks!
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post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 00:12
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stamfordman
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:45
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Post the PCN - there is a point here I can think of. Also the location.

Councils don't repay parking charges but some are relaxed about a first time error with pay by phone when the parking fee has been paid. It is always worth asking. I don't think Camden has a published policy on this.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:48
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Colin_S
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 11:22
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Not quite the same but not dissimilar to one my daughter appealed with a different London Borough. They (Bexley) cancelled the PCN at the first informal appeal.

Dear Sirs

I wish to appeal this PCN.

I parked my car and paid for parking via the pay by phone app. as I do each and every time I park in this car park. However, earlier this week, my father changed the number plates on my car to a new personalised plate and I totally forgot to make the change to my pay by phone details. Consequently I paid for parking for this car but under it’s old registration number XXXXXXX which you will be able to confirm through your records.

If you give me an email address, I will forward photographic evidence of a stamped and dated by the DVLA V5 slip confirming the change of number.

I trust you will accept that the alleged offence of the vehicle being parked without payment of the parking charge is in fact incorrect and did not occur as the charge had indeed been paid for that physical vehicle but under the wrong registration number.

I accept an error was made on my part in not updating my vehicle details on the pay by phone system , however, I believe that now the council has been made aware of the full facts, that this error should be considered by them to be “de minimis”.

Such a trivial and inconsequential error does not warrant the council taking a hard line and upholding the penalty charge. I believe that for the council to take such a stance would be contrary to the advice of the DfT and the Secretary of State.

Paragraph 85 from the Secretary of State’s Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities advises;

85. An authority has a discretionary power to cancel a PCN at any point
throughout the CPE process. It can do this even when an undoubted
contravention has occurred if the authority deems it to be appropriate in the
circumstances of the case. Under general principles of public law, authorities
have a duty to act fairly and proportionately and are encouraged to exercise
discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest.

It is clear to any reasonable person that it would not be in the public interest to penalise a person who immediately on parking their vehicle paid the required fee. I cannot think of a more appropriate situation where paragraph 85 applies than this. I therefore politely request that the council act fairly and proportionately in this matter and exercise their discretion sensibly and reasonably by cancelling this penalty charge. It would be best for all if we can resolve this without the need to seek independent adjudication.

Kind regards
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nish81
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:59
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Here is the PCN:





Should I try an informal appeal in the style of what Colin_S has posted?
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stamfordman
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 18:24
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Ok, the PCN is a lower level (£40/£80) code 11 which is correct for a pay only bay as I see they are in Queen Square.

But as Camden says: "The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a Pay by Phone bay during controlled hours and payment has not been made."

"Payment should be made by phone or mobile app. Not purchasing a cashless session will lead to the issuing of a PCN."

Payment has been made. There is no mention of matching the payment to the vehicle or anything about displaying a valid voucher etc.

I would make a simple challenge that the contravention did not occur as a cashless session had been bought. You made an honest error with the VRM but there was no attempt to evade payment.

Camden doesn't seem to have a discretion policy I can find but the codes are here:

https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/s...id=3308247&


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nish81
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 14:55
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Hello everyone,

I've run into a new, unexpected problem with Camden. I submitted the PCN challenge online and received the confirmation email from camden.gov.uk - but when I followed up over the phone after 3 weeks they claimed that they hadn't received it in their system. I submitted it again and 5 days later they still haven't received it. At this point I'm not sure what I can do, or if it's even my responsibility to do anything, as I have the two confirmation emails dated on the two dates that I attempted to submit my challenge, and I assume the fact that my challenge is not 'going through their system properly' is not my problem? Is that the case, or is the onus on me to do something about this now? What can I expect to happen if I just leave it be?

Thanks!
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:35
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Very important: do you still have the confirmation emails from Camden, and does it have any sort of reference number?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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nish81
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:33
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:35) *
Very important: do you still have the confirmation emails from Camden, and does it have any sort of reference number?


I do have the confirmation email from Camden. it has the reference number of my PCN as the ref no. It also has a PDF attachment which is a summary of my PCN details, a copy of my challenge text, and has 'Submitted on January 15 2018 at 22:52' as the footer. on every page. Here are screenshots:





This is the footer of the pdf attached to the email, it appears at the bottom of each of the pages:

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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 17:53
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So you can prove you made an appeal and it is now their legal duty to consider your appeal. At this point I would do nothing, as they have confirmed in writing that they have received your representations and their internal communication problems are, well, their problem.

I'm tempted to say that when the Notice to Owner comes, you should submit a one line appeal stating "I would like to make formal representations and I in doing so I rely on the submissions outlined in my informal representations", some members might think this is a somewhat cynical / tactical approach, but providing they don't fix their system in the mean time, this approach gives you almost complete certainty that you will get the PCN cancelled.

The only downside is you would need to take them to tribunal to get the PCN cancelled, but as I've said, if they issue a notice of rejection without considering your representations, you're virtually guaranteed to win at adjudication.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 18:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 17:53) *
So you can prove you made an appeal and it is now their legal duty to consider your appeal. At this point I would do nothing, as they have confirmed in writing that they have received your representations and their internal communication problems are, well, their problem.

I'm tempted to say that when the Notice to Owner comes, you should submit a one line appeal stating "I would like to make formal representations and I in doing so I rely on the submissions outlined in my informal representations", some members might think this is a somewhat cynical / tactical approach, but providing they don't fix their system in the mean time, this approach gives you almost complete certainty that you will get the PCN cancelled.

The only downside is you would need to take them to tribunal to get the PCN cancelled, but as I've said, if they issue a notice of rejection without considering your representations, you're virtually guaranteed to win at adjudication.


I'd wait to see the response,
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 18:52
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 18:47) *
I'd wait to see the response,

Yes that's the "At this point I would do nothing" part :-)


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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nish81
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:21
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 17:53) *
So you can prove you made an appeal and it is now their legal duty to consider your appeal. At this point I would do nothing, as they have confirmed in writing that they have received your representations and their internal communication problems are, well, their problem.

I'm tempted to say that when the Notice to Owner comes, you should submit a one line appeal stating "I would like to make formal representations and I in doing so I rely on the submissions outlined in my informal representations", some members might think this is a somewhat cynical / tactical approach, but providing they don't fix their system in the mean time, this approach gives you almost complete certainty that you will get the PCN cancelled.

The only downside is you would need to take them to tribunal to get the PCN cancelled, but as I've said, if they issue a notice of rejection without considering your representations, you're virtually guaranteed to win at adjudication.


Wow, thanks for the very detailed response. So this one line appeal would be a formal representation to Camden Council itself, right? That is, not the tribunal yet at this stage. And what you're saying is that if, after this formal representation, they reject my challenge in a way that makes it obvious that they have not considered my representations, then I would then go to tribunal and be guaranteed a win? Would the win be guaranteed purely because of their failure to consider my challenge?
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:32
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OP----regarding the app-----did it default to the old VRM or did you press the wrong button? Camden and technology are incompatible at the best of times.

Have you still got the same phone you used to register the old app?

This one is quite interesting:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1289618

Always look to system faults first up.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 00:15
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QUOTE (nish81 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:21) *
Wow, thanks for the very detailed response. So this one line appeal would be a formal representation to Camden Council itself, right? That is, not the tribunal yet at this stage. And what you're saying is that if, after this formal representation, they reject my challenge in a way that makes it obvious that they have not considered my representations, then I would then go to tribunal and be guaranteed a win? Would the win be guaranteed purely because of their failure to consider my challenge?

As PMB has said, at this stage, do nothing. When you receive a Notice to Owner (or any other correspondence), post a copy on here we'll advise on the next steps (You cannot make formal reps until you receive a Notice to Owner).

But to answer your question, if it gets to adjudication and you can show that they have not considered your representations at all, then yes that's a guaranteed win.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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