PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

No more fines in the post from EU countries if you're on UK plates
cp8759
post Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 14:49
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Regs published today https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1361/made so we should see a decrease in French and Italian threads (which seem to be the most common).


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 14:49
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Korting
post Sat, 5 Dec 2020 - 10:11
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,322
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



Does that mean, we also cannot prosecute non British citizens who commit motoring offences in the UK?

I think you'll find there are far more non UK registered cars in the UK, than UK registered cars abroad.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mickR
post Sat, 5 Dec 2020 - 11:56
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,398
Joined: 5 Jan 2007
From: England
Member No.: 9,919



Expect an increase in stops and spot fines when abroad then!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 6 Dec 2020 - 18:27
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 5 Dec 2020 - 10:11) *
Does that mean, we also cannot prosecute non British citizens who commit motoring offences in the UK?

We've never really done that, no UK police force has ever bothered prosecuting foreign registered offenders, it's just too much effort and hassle. For starters, you'd have issues proving a NIP was served abroad within the 14 day period. Secondly, it is unlikely s172 could have force of law outside the UK, so any correspondence issued could be safely ignored.

Of course, foreign offenders who are stopped at the roadside can be issued on-the-spot fines (or more precisely the police can take a roadside "deposit"), but we've been doing that for years.

So in practice, for UK law enforcement nothing will change.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TryOut
post Fri, 18 Dec 2020 - 19:40
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 340
Joined: 7 May 2019
Member No.: 103,734



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 6 Dec 2020 - 18:27) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 5 Dec 2020 - 10:11) *
Does that mean, we also cannot prosecute non British citizens who commit motoring offences in the UK?

We've never really done that, no UK police force has ever bothered prosecuting foreign registered offenders, it's just too much effort and hassle. For starters, you'd have issues proving a NIP was served abroad within the 14 day period. Secondly, it is unlikely s172 could have force of law outside the UK, so any correspondence issued could be safely ignored.

Of course, foreign offenders who are stopped at the roadside can be issued on-the-spot fines (or more precisely the police can take a roadside "deposit"), but we've been doing that for years.

So in practice, for UK law enforcement nothing will change.

S172 doesn’t even work in Northern Ireland, there’s no way it works in Europe.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
progbloke
post Sat, 19 Dec 2020 - 19:58
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 312
Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Member No.: 3,329



Plus the fact that all communication has to be in a language that the recipient understands.

As most SCPs can barely communicate in English, I dread to think how they'd effectively communicate with Pierre, Klaus, Miguel or Guiseppe. biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 19 Dec 2020 - 20:17
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,507
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 18 Dec 2020 - 19:40) *
S172 doesn’t even work in Northern Ireland, there’s no way it works in Europe.

So what do SCPs do when faced with a vehicle registered in NI or a Crown Dependency?


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TryOut
post Sun, 20 Dec 2020 - 00:49
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 340
Joined: 7 May 2019
Member No.: 103,734



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 19 Dec 2020 - 20:17) *
QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 18 Dec 2020 - 19:40) *
S172 doesn’t even work in Northern Ireland, there’s no way it works in Europe.

So what do SCPs do when faced with a vehicle registered in NI or a Crown Dependency?

What do you think they can do?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sun, 20 Dec 2020 - 01:10
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,507
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (TryOut @ Sun, 20 Dec 2020 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 19 Dec 2020 - 20:17) *
QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 18 Dec 2020 - 19:40) *
S172 doesn’t even work in Northern Ireland, there’s no way it works in Europe.

So what do SCPs do when faced with a vehicle registered in NI or a Crown Dependency?

What do you think they can do?

I think they can (and do) make enquiries to determine the RK’s address. They then serve an NIP and s 172. I have a view that the s 172 has no legal effect but I’m interested in your view.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sat, 26 Dec 2020 - 18:21
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 46,831
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



So will the agreed deal overturn this change? Not clear yet to me.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 28 Dec 2020 - 19:44
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 26 Dec 2020 - 18:21) *
So will the agreed deal overturn this change? Not clear yet to me.

While I am only part way through reading it, as far as I understand it the answer is no. After all, the cross-border enforcement agreement doesn't apply to Switzerland or the EEA countries, so why would it apply to a non-EEA country like the UK?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roythebus
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 17:13
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,608
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



There's been a couple of cases on here of Swiss authorities contacting UK drivers about speeding fines.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fluff34567
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 09:25
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 375
Joined: 6 Aug 2009
Member No.: 30,955



QUOTE (roythebus @ Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 18:13) *
There's been a couple of cases on here of Swiss authorities contacting UK drivers about speeding fines.


Swiss authorities contacted home office who forwarded the fine paperwork to the owners local plod or passed owners details to the swiss authorities. I'm not aware it has ever been an official agreement.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 15:37
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (fluff34567 @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 09:25) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 18:13) *
There's been a couple of cases on here of Swiss authorities contacting UK drivers about speeding fines.


Swiss authorities contacted home office who forwarded the fine paperwork to the owners local plod or passed owners details to the swiss authorities. I'm not aware it has ever been an official agreement.

I'm not sure there's anything the Swiss authorities can do once they have those details, nor does plod have any authority to enforce a foreign issued criminal penalty.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roythebus
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:08
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,608
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



My point entirely. However, from what I've read on one of the FB political groups, there's a couple of paragraphs in the Trade Agreement with the EU that enables the exchange of RK details between the EU and UK authorities, but apparently nothing about the ability to collect fines from another country.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:17
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:08) *
My point entirely. However, from what I've read on one of the FB political groups, there's a couple of paragraphs in the Trade Agreement with the EU that enables the exchange of RK details between the EU and UK authorities, but apparently nothing about the ability to collect fines from another country.

Well of course not, after all these is no such agreement with Norway / Iceland / Switzerland even though (unlike the UK) they all participate, to different extents, in Schengen and the EU internal market. Cross-border collection of fines is only available between EU members.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
666
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:42
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,870
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:08) *
My point entirely. However, from what I've read on one of the FB political groups, there's a couple of paragraphs in the Trade Agreement with the EU that enables the exchange of RK details between the EU and UK authorities, but apparently nothing about the ability to collect fines from another country.

Switzerland is not a party to the Trade Agreement.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:54
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:42) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:08) *
My point entirely. However, from what I've read on one of the FB political groups, there's a couple of paragraphs in the Trade Agreement with the EU that enables the exchange of RK details between the EU and UK authorities, but apparently nothing about the ability to collect fines from another country.

Switzerland is not a party to the Trade Agreement.

I was referring to the arrangements between Switzerland and the EU, to point out that there is no cross-border enforcement between the EU and Switzerland, notwithstanding the fact that Switzerland for all practical purposes is part of the EU market.

As for trade, there is a seperate trade agreement between the UK and Switzerland, which has nothing to do with the EU.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Yesterday, 15:12
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,197
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



CrimPR 30.10 (Financial penalties imposed in other European Union member States) repealed by The Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2021 rule 30(b) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/40/article/16/made, coming into force on 5 April 2021 as per rule 2(k) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/40/article/2/made


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Today, 08:56
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 46,831
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



So we'll just see them continue to use 'debt collectors' to try and browbeat people into paying.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 19th January 2021 - 20:57
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.