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Potentially gone through a red light
Bigbang21
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:54
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Hello,

So on the 1/02/18 I was pulled over and told I was speeding, and went through a red. Potentially may of sped up to get through once seen it was yellow.

The light went red just as my nose went over the line.

The police saw this in their rear view mirror. There may of been CCTV looking but they said it did not directly see me, the CCTV turns on a 4 point axis, there are 3 of them. They kept asking me to admit I had gone through the red. I did not. (this went on for about 40 minutes) they said if I admitted that they went not go for the speeding charge. after I kept refusing they said they would be nice, send me a NIP for the light charge, and if I contested it they would then add on the speeding charge. Can they do this?

I have received a letter over the weekend (either the 16th or 17th of Feb) stating they wish to go after me for the red light, and have been offered a course. the evidence states -

"There is sufficient evidence to take proceedings against you for the offence of: Drive motor vehicle fail comply with red traffic signal / lane closure light signals - manual detection ."

Does this mean it is their word only? can I request evidence?

If it is just their word against mine can I contest it successfully?
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post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:54
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 19:06
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Their evidence is just what they saw (or think they saw) but that is enough to convict without something concrete to counter it. By your own admission you went through on red, so how would you defend this in court without committing perjury?

My advice, take the course.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 19:13
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For clarity, amber means stop and the only defence to crossing in amber is it’s its unsafe to do so, if any part of your car crosses on red, even just the back bumper, you commit the offence.

By your own description it sounds like the offence of not complying with the traffic sign was committed, what speed limit was it?


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Churchmouse
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 10:45
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I'm surprised the police did not explain the offence tot he OP in the clear way Rookie did. It seems that the OP is under the misapprehension that the law is different than it is. FWIW, the traffic laws in other countries (e.g., the USA) do operate in the way Bigbang21 has implied (with the reference point being the front of the vehicle), but that is not the case here (which must seem particularly unfair to drivers of articulated lorries and other very long vehicles...).

--Churchmouse
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Bigbang21
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:00
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Thankyou for your replies, although I’m still unclear, is their eyes proof enough? In a rear view mirror as well?

Am I entitled to request evidence?

Can they change their minds on the charge after issuing the ticket?

By the way this was all at 5:30am

This post has been edited by Bigbang21: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:02
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peterguk
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:11
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QUOTE (Bigbang21 @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:00) *
is their eyes proof enough?


Yes.

Sounds like what they saw agrees with your recollection:

QUOTE (Bigbang21 @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:54) *
The light went red just as my nose went over the line.


QUOTE (Bigbang21 @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:00) *
Am I entitled to request evidence?


Yes. After you have lost the option of a course.


QUOTE (Bigbang21 @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 22:00) *
Can they change their minds on the charge after issuing the ticket?


They can, but why would they?


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The Rookie
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 09:56
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 11:45) *
FWIW, the traffic laws in other countries (e.g., the USA) do operate in the way Bigbang21 has implied (with the reference point being the front of the vehicle), but that is not the case here (which must seem particularly unfair to drivers of articulated lorries and other very long vehicles...).

The laws in the US differ by state, some use the UK principle of amber means stop, others encourage you to gamble the red by only red meaning stop, while others permit a vehicle already crossing to continue.

But then they do slaughter circa 35,000 a year on their roads to our circa 1600 from a population only 5 times bigger..........(about the same number also die from 'lead poisoning' as well each year and 64,000 from prescription opioid abuse so their sense of self preservation (as a nation, not individual) isn't too good.)


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Logician
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 10:43
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 09:56) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 11:45) *
FWIW, the traffic laws in other countries (e.g., the USA) do operate in the way Bigbang21 has implied (with the reference point being the front of the vehicle), but that is not the case here (which must seem particularly unfair to drivers of articulated lorries and other very long vehicles...).
The laws in the US differ by state, some use the UK principle of amber means stop, others encourage you to gamble the red by only red meaning stop, while others permit a vehicle already crossing to continue. But then they do slaughter circa 35,000 a year on their roads to our circa 1600 from a population only 5 times bigger..........(about the same number also die from 'lead poisoning' as well each year and 64,000 from prescription opioid abuse so their sense of self preservation (as a nation, not individual) isn't too good.)


I think you can tell that from the ease with which homicidal maniacs can buy assault rifles, and the NRA response of arming school teachers!

Interesting that they drive rather slower than we do on the whole but kill so many more people, something for BRAKE to think about (but they won't)

Off-topic, sorry.



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Fredd
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:06
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 10:43) *
Interesting that they drive rather slower than we do on the whole but kill so many more people, something for BRAKE to think about (but they won't)

They also expect to get about 50,000 miles out of a set of tyres, the consequences of which become abundantly clear should you try braking hard on a wet road over there.


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Churchmouse
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 23:13
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 09:56) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 11:45) *
FWIW, the traffic laws in other countries (e.g., the USA) do operate in the way Bigbang21 has implied (with the reference point being the front of the vehicle), but that is not the case here (which must seem particularly unfair to drivers of articulated lorries and other very long vehicles...).

The laws in the US differ by state, some use the UK principle of amber means stop, others encourage you to gamble the red by only red meaning stop, while others permit a vehicle already crossing to continue.

But then they do slaughter circa 35,000 a year on their roads to our circa 1600 from a population only 5 times bigger..........(about the same number also die from 'lead poisoning' as well each year and 64,000 from prescription opioid abuse so their sense of self preservation (as a nation, not individual) isn't too good.)

All very informative (I'll be sure to consult with the experts here the next time I need some "411"), but my point was that the reference point used there (and perhaps other places the OP might be familiar with) is the front of the vehicle, rather than the back, as it is here. I haven't driven in every state, but I seriously doubt any of them have adopted that particular aspect of UK traffic law. I didn't mention the difference in meaning of the yellow traffic light, which is obviously a significant difference as well, but it is not relevant here: the OP is being prosecuted for going through a red light, not a yellow one.

--Churchmouse
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The Rookie
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 03:54
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:13) *
but it is not relevant here: the OP is being prosecuted for going through a red light, not a yellow one.

Erm that's the same offence, proving it wasn't red but amber would be admitting to being guilty (absent the statutory defence), much like proving you were doing 35 in a 30 not the 40 alleged would be.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 03:54) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:13) *
but it is not relevant here: the OP is being prosecuted for going through a red light, not a yellow one.

Erm that's the same offence, proving it wasn't red but amber would be admitting to being guilty (absent the statutory defence), much like proving you were doing 35 in a 30 not the 40 alleged would be.

Oh, I didn't realise it was the same offence. Different evidence, though. And it's still not relevant, because the OP has effectively admitted passing the signal when it was red...

--Churchmouse
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