Is this sign sufficiently clear? Options

[mark7144]

I received a PCN for parking in front of this sign even though I'm a permit holder. Was this a mistake or did I misunderstand the sign? If the latter, is it sufficiently clear?

I interpreted the sign as meaning it's OK to park if you have a permit but without one you are limited to 20 mins.

Is it worth appealing?

Streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5164914,0.0...6384!8i8192
Sign: https://imgur.com/BpAYy9G
PCN Front: https://imgur.com/PUiZvB5
PCN Back: https://imgur.com/5odwF3S

This post has been edited by mark7144: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 23:35

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[Neil B]

Well did you park for longer than 20 minutes?

[mark7144]

Yes and going by your reply, I take it I have misunderstood the sign.

I assumed it was: Permit Holders only OR Park for 20 mins. I didn't think that being a permit holder only entitled me to 20 mins.

This post has been edited by mark7144: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 23:54

[Neil B]

OR

It doesn't say that.
It's a 20 minute facility to allow holders of any Newham permit to park in those short stay bays, irrespective of if it is
their own zone. Hence there is no zone identifier tile on the sign.

To be fair, I know this but do those signs clearly display that information? ---- Might be debatable so
hang around.

There was actually a Tribunal win just a couple of days ago where the adjudicator couldn't get his head around it.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 00:03

[mark7144]

It's my first time having to read a sign like that. Since the new signs went up around my area, I've only ever noticed it being a simple case of you have a permit or you don't.

I do hope it is a case of it being somewhat ambiguous rather than me being a stupid person. I don't think I'm particularly stupid but then a stupid person would say that.

Thanks to confirming the meaning of it. Will hang about and see if anyone thinks it's worth appealing.

This post has been edited by mark7144: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 00:10

[Neil B]

I do hope it is a case of it being somewhat ambiguous rather than me being a stupid person. I don't think I'm particularly stupid but then a stupid person would say that.

It's certainly debatable so we'll see what others say.

This from the Notice of the Traffic Order -

• Any Newham CPZ permit parking places in Ashburton Road, Charford Road, Fife Road, Forty Acre Lane, Hooper Road, Mandela Road, Munday Road, Peto Street North, Radland Road, Victoria Dock Road and Vincent Street in which vehicles displaying a resident or business permit issued for use in any London Borough of Newham CPZ may be left during the operational hours for a maximum period of 20 minutes (no return within 1 hour);

but does the sign explain that?

and in another zone, they cocked the Traffic Order and the very same sign there means what you thought it did!

[Neil B]

and in another zone, they cocked the Traffic Order and the very same sign there means what you thought it did!

As above, for exactly the same sign, Forest Gate Nth zone -

•  ‘Shared use’ parking places (permit holders and free short stay parking) in which vehicles without a permit may be left without charge between 8am and 6.30pm on Monday to Saturday inclusive for a maximum period of 20 minutes, with a prohibition on returning to that same parking place within a period of 1 hour, in Avenue Road, Capel Road, Cemetery Road, Chestnut Avenue, Clinton Road, Cranmer Road, Forest Road, Horace Road, Knighton Road, Lorne Road, Magpie Close, Odessa Road, Talbot Road E7 and Woodford Road. Vehicles displaying a permit may be left in these parking places without time limit;

My bolds and u/l.

[mark7144]

Interesting! Definitely worth mentioning that if I am to appeal.

[Incandescent]

well, I have to say I don't find it at all ambiguous. Between 08.00 and 18.30 the bay is for permit holders and restricts them to a 20 minute period. Outside these hours there is no restriction.

[hcandersen]

+1

OP, for how long have you held a permit?

[cp8759]

well, I have to say I don't find it at all ambiguous. Between 08.00 and 18.30 the bay is for permit holders and restricts them to a 20 minute period. Outside these hours there is no restriction.

+1, the sign seems clear to me. You cab challenge Newham PCNs on the 0845 fax number if you fancy a technical challenge.