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PCN Contravention 23
Donkey Derby
post Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 10:47
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Hi All

I have just received the above. I was dropping off the last of some personal belongings to my ex partner and collecting my son. I was in a loading bay which is marked on the road so thought I would be fine as I was loading/unloading personal belongings. I was there for no more than 15 minutes.

On return to my car, I had a ticket and noticed the sign that says 'Goods vehicles only'.

My question is.... can my car be classed as a 'goods vehicle' if I was helping my partner to move in?

Or can I class collecting my son as picking up a passenger? Loading/alighting?

Many thanks
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post Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 10:47
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stamfordman
post Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 11:23
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No, you can't change a saloon car into an artic. This contravention is very hard to contest.

Post the PCN and the council pics, and a google street view, and we'll see if there is anything to go on such as the wording on the PCN.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 11:24
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cp8759
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 14:09
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Show us the PCN, the council photos and give us a link to the location on google street view. The photos may be inadequate, the PCN might be flawed, the loading bay might allow boarding / alighting, but without seeing the evidence we cannot give you any real advice.


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Donkey Derby
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 19:59
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Thank you

Kimber House
118 High St, Southampton SO14 2EB
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Iā€™m not very hopeful šŸ™ˆ
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Incandescent
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 21:38
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QUOTE (Donkey Derby @ Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 20:59) *
Iā€™m not very hopeful šŸ™ˆ

Nor me !
A clear sign, and "loading only" roadmarking. Did you even look for a sign ? It is fatal to just take the road marking because restricting loading to goods vehicles only is very common, I'm afraid. If you'd hired a van for your delivery of chattels, you'd have been OK.

What did collecting your son involve ? If he is very young, you could claim "assisted boarding", i.e. he was too young to be standing at the roadside waiting for you.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 21:51
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I see a couple of arguable points. First the PCN does not state what class of vehicle and second tell us more about picking up your child


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Donkey Derby
post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 14:49
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I didnā€™t look for a sign, I didnā€™t even think about it if Iā€™m perfectly honest šŸ˜‚

My son is 18 months old so definitely not able to wait at the road by himself.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 17:44
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QUOTE (Donkey Derby @ Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 15:49) *
I didnā€™t look for a sign, I didnā€™t even think about it if Iā€™m perfectly honest šŸ˜‚

My son is 18 months old so definitely not able to wait at the road by himself.

Forget the chattels, go for "assisted boarding". An 18 month old child will also be accompanied by "impedimenta" so this bulks out the 15 minutes you were there. This should be a win for you if you can tell us a bit more about the child boarding.
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Donkey Derby
post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 19:28
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I had to go to a 4th floor to collect him from his dads flat along with a bag of toys & books, spare clothes, coat & drinks bottle,

Not sure what else I can tell you?
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cp8759
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 14:14
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I believe (but have not 100% confirmed) that this is the TRO: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...mpton/SN141.pdf

Article 7 says:

7 EXEMPTIONS
(i) Nothing in Articles 3, 5 and 6(g) shall render it a contravention to cause or permit a vehicle to wait in the lengths of road or parking places referred to therein, if the vehicle
is being used:
(a) for a person to aboard or alight from the vehicle;


Were all the child's chattels ready for collection when you turned up?


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 14:34
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How long from parking to returning and finding the PCN ?


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Donkey Derby
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 20:28
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 15:14) *
I believe (but have not 100% confirmed) that this is the TRO: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...mpton/SN141.pdf

Article 7 says:

7 EXEMPTIONS
(i) Nothing in Articles 3, 5 and 6(g) shall render it a contravention to cause or permit a vehicle to wait in the lengths of road or parking places referred to therein, if the vehicle
is being used:
(a) for a person to aboard or alight from the vehicle;


Were all the child's chattels ready for collection when you turned up?



No, he had only just woken so I had to get her his things & put on his shoes & jumper.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 15:34) *
How long from parking to returning and finding the PCN ?


I think I arrived at just after 2pm poss 5 past & left at 2.15pm
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Donkey Derby
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 21:00
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Thanks so much for all your help btw!
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 13:04
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QUOTE (Donkey Derby @ Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 22:00) *
Thanks so much for all your help btw!

IMO you can submit a challenge Will draft something later


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Donkey Derby
post Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 01:31
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 14:04) *
QUOTE (Donkey Derby @ Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 22:00) *
Thanks so much for all your help btw!

IMO you can submit a challenge Will draft something later


OMG Do you really think so?
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Gert
post Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 07:38
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Assisted boarding may possibly fail based upon how long the CEO observed the vehicle compared to the distance to the 4th floor flat from the bay.

Whatever may be acceptable to extend the notional time required between parking, collection and driving away again should be clear for the LA to take into account.

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Steve_999
post Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 07:57
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QUOTE (Gert @ Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 08:38) *
Assisted boarding may possibly fail based upon how long the CEO observed the vehicle . . . . .


22 seconds according to the PCN!
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hcandersen
post Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 09:15
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By way of background, this sounds as if it is a regular occurrence - I was dropping off the last of some personal belongings to my ex partner- so where would you normally wait?

You could have waited at any point on the double yellow lines.

IMO, this is finely balanced (at adjudication), I think the authority are more than likely to reject.

I hear judges' words in my head....that one must take a purposive interpretation of the restriction, in other words the bay is not there to allow private cars to occupy limited off-main carriageway space put in place for a completely different purpose. (this is why it's recessed for commercial i.e. larger, vehicles to prevent to main carriageway being restricted)

IMO, you need to expand on what happened and why you took so long. For example, does the handover normally take place elsewhere and the difficulties you encountered were unexpected? Does the handover normally take place quicker but there was an unexpected delay?

No amount of reference to the TRO helps because exactly what an adjudicator would accept as being reasonable as regards 'assisted alighting' is a matter for the adjudicator on the day, it is not set in stone.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 10:17
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 10:34
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HCA and I are going to disagree again. not on the fundamentals of any challenge but on the exemption. It was only put in place to cover the circumstances you described. if it was the councils intent that to pick up or drop off you should use the DYL then they would not put in place the exemption

But it does beg the question is it the correct TRO?

Something along these lines


I had arranged to collect my son from his father who lives at (address) this is on the fourth floor. I saw the legend loading only on the road and as I was also delivering a number of personal possessions thought this was the best place to stop. I stress that the primary reason for doing so was the collection of my 18 month old son. I parked at approximately 14.05 and returned to my car with my son approximately 14.15

Upon return to the vehicle i discovered the PCN attached to the car and only then did i notice the sign that said Goods vehicle loading only. I felt that given the road legend only stated loading only that this was somewhat confusing. because of this I did some research and took advice.

It appears to me that the governing TRO THE CITY OF SOUTHAMPTON(VARIOUS ROADS) (PROHIBITION AND RESTRICTION OF WAITING)TRAFFIC REGULATION ORDER 2011 is the governing order. If that be so then artice 7 EXEMPTIONS says this

(i) Nothing in Articles 3, 5 and 6(g) shall render it a contravention to cause or permit a vehicle to wait in the lengths of road or parking places referred to therein, if the vehicle
is being used:

(a) for a person to aboard or alight from the vehicle;

My son being only 18 months old the boarding required that I collect him and take him to the car. It is settled law that collecting a young, elderly or disabled person to assist them with boarding, falls within the definition of boarding alighting and I am therefore entitled to claim the above exemption as the whole process of stopping going to the flat collecting my son and returning was done without any undue delay.

As such i ask the council to cancel this PCN. Or if they are of the opinion that the exemption is not valid they explain why and provide the TRO that would negate it


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Donkey Derby
post Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 18:04
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 10:15) *
By way of background, this sounds as if it is a regular occurrence - I was dropping off the last of some personal belongings to my ex partner- so where would you normally wait?

You could have waited at any point on the double yellow lines.

IMO, this is finely balanced (at adjudication), I think the authority are more than likely to reject.

I hear judges' words in my head....that one must take a purposive interpretation of the restriction, in other words the bay is not there to allow private cars to occupy limited off-main carriageway space put in place for a completely different purpose. (this is why it's recessed for commercial i.e. larger, vehicles to prevent to main carriageway being restricted)

IMO, you need to expand on what happened and why you took so long. For example, does the handover normally take place elsewhere and the difficulties you encountered were unexpected? Does the handover normally take place quicker but there was an unexpected delay?

No amount of reference to the TRO helps because exactly what an adjudicator would accept as being reasonable as regards 'assisted alighting' is a matter for the adjudicator on the day, it is not set in stone.



Thanks for your reply.
It was the second time I have visited the property as my ex partner has only just moved into it. The first time, I parked in a parking bay much further up the road as I did not know where the entrance was & my partner brought my son to the car. This time, I went to the flat to collect him because I had the leftover belongings to give to his dad and his dad had informed me that he had only just woken from a nap so I knew he was not going to be dressed and ready to collect.
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