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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ PCN from Rotherham Council

Posted by: Nictastic Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:24
Post #1550150



Hi
I received a PCN for parking in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit. I was going to pay it because I know I didn't have any grounds for appeal. However I've contacted Rotherham Council, asking how to apply for a permit. To be told the permit doesn't exist. The land is private property and they are only enforcing on behalf on the land owner. The land owner refuses to issue any permits. Apparently this is the only way they can get around it and the lady I spoke to mentioned something about it been an access road as well. Do you think it's worth appealing? Please see images below. Thank You.

https://imageshack.com/i/pn5dAQfnj

https://imageshack.com/i/pl2J6LnDj




Posted by: Mad Mick V Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:01
Post #1550157

Had this place before. There is a parking places order but I haven't seen a permit order.

This is the last case:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=120561&view=findpost&p=1384992


Mick

Posted by: stamfordman Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:02
Post #1550158

Council does have a TMO for this but it seems odd:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwi86tmlgM_nAhV7QxUIHQUaD3cQFjAAegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk%2FTRO%2FRotherham%2FCALLFLEX-BUSINESS-CENTRE.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0u2YSFtOIDFbLjruYaplwJ

is this it:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5015438,-1.3190843,3a,75y,225.53h,70.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spjkG599DWf66yssRf3xypg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

EDIT - I see MMV has come up with the goods.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 18:44
Post #1550187

It's the same sign as they admitted was wrong as a reason not to contest an appeal

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 11:05
Post #1550501

Let's see the council's photos, you'll find them here https://parking.rotherham.gov.uk/

Last time round the council admitted the signs were wrong so if it's still enforcing based on the old sign, that is wholly unreasonable IMO and you could get an order for costs against the council.

Also, were you parked in a bay?

Posted by: Nictastic Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 20:45
Post #1550652

The sign has changed since the last case. The council have added in No parking on access roads. Also there are no parking bays to park in.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 21:23
Post #1550664

Well I suggest you show us the council photos plus any photos of your own. However the central issue remains regardless of the signage: if there are no bays, the council cannot accuse you of parking in a bay, everything else is secondary.

Posted by: Nictastic Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 14:36
Post #1550975

https://imageshack.com/i/pnciKfj4j

This is one of the council photos.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 15:06
Post #1550979

QUOTE (Nictastic @ Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 14:36) *
https://imageshack.com/i/pnciKfj4j

This is one of the council photos.


ALL of them use an external hosting site such as imgur

Posted by: Nictastic Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 16:20
Post #1550990

Can you not see the photo?

Posted by: Nictastic Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 14:43
Post #1551527

The council have rejected my appeal. I would appreciate any help drafting my response. Please see letter below.

https://imageshack.com/i/pnr94wmtj

https://imageshack.com/i/pnNW1Qyxj


Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 09:59
Post #1551959

Well the photo of the sign in the letter is the same as we had in the last case. Post a copy of your representation (i.e. whatever it is that you wrote to the council)

Are you the owner of the vehicle and is the V5C in your name? If so, you don't send any response, you wait for the Notice to Owner.

Do not respond to the Notice to Owner without getting our help first, this is a really easy PCN to beat but if you go it alone you risk getting yourself into a muddle.

Posted by: Nictastic Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 16:35
Post #1552052

This is the e-mail I sent to the council to appeal. It was mostly a copy and paste job from the previous case. I admit I have no idea what I'm doing.

Please accept this as an appeal against the penalty charge on the following grounds that Contravention did not occur.

The contravention on the PCN, Code 85, is an off-street contravention. The vehicle was parked on a road and, although this may be an access road to a specific destination, it is a road nonetheless. Having not passed any signs to indicate being in a car park the contravention code is wrong.

Regardless of the above, whether the vehicle was in a car park or not, the alleged contravention refers to being ‘parked in a permit bay’. As the vehicle was not parked in any sort of bay the alleged contravention did not occur and is unsustainable. Furthermore, for the council to contend that the vehicle was in a parking bay, or to contend that you can be penalised for a parking bay contravention even though the vehicle was nowhere near a parking bay, is wholly unreasonable.

Should parking be prohibited on access roads leading to a car park it is required that appropriate signage, such as double yellow lines, be used. There were no signs capable of creating a no waiting restriction along the entire length of the access road. Even if appropriate signage was visible, the alleged contravention did not occur because the vehicle was not parked in a permit bay, or indeed any other type of bay.

In addition to this, I have spoken to someone in your offices, who have stated that the permit does not exist. If a permit does not exist, how can I be accused of parking without a valid permit?

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 20:16
Post #1552110

Ok so are you the registered keeper? If so, go and get the V5C and double-check that the address is correct, do not assume that it is.

Posted by: Nictastic Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 21:33
Post #1552133

Yes I am the registered keeper and the address is correct.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 22:53
Post #1552149

Come back here when you get the Notice to Owner.

Posted by: Nictastic Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 21:25
Post #1560467

I've finally received the Notice to Owner. I appreciate we are in difficult times but if anyone has the time to help me that would be great. It would be one less thing to worry about.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 09:44
Post #1560509

QUOTE (Nictastic @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 22:25) *
I've finally received the Notice to Owner. I appreciate we are in difficult times but if anyone has the time to help me that would be great. It would be one less thing to worry about.



post it

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 12:48
Post #1560569

Post it up and we'll draft a representation for you.

Posted by: Nictastic Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 21:57
Post #1560713

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vosstbmxtl3mtis/20200331_213538.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sopc07it9dn915c/20200331_213600.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ujus0iypjanc8f/20200331_213910.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o1hwgsrrc75rd2c/20200331_213951.jpg?dl=0

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 16:53
Post #1560873

No point in writing war and peace on this one:

-----------------

Dear Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council,

The PCN was issued for "Parked in a permit bay without clearing displaying a permit". As the CEO's photos will clearly demonstrate, I was not parked in a bay of any sort. Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Posted by: Nictastic Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 21:05
Post #1560948

Thank you very much for this. I will let you know how I get on.

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 22:22
Post #1560962

QUOTE (Nictastic @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 22:05) *
Thank you very much for this. I will let you know how I get on.

We already know, the council will almost certainly reject, post up the rejection when you get it.

Posted by: Nictastic Mon, 6 Apr 2020 - 10:35
Post #1561797

Well that didn't take long! Here is the rejection

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9wypyo3kdum2ssa/20200406_113152.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mn7dvown017j4tp/20200406_112940.jpg?dl=0

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 6 Apr 2020 - 10:52
Post #1561811

Please post the other pages of the letter, but what I've seen so far is utter rubbish.

Posted by: Nictastic Mon, 6 Apr 2020 - 19:29
Post #1561925

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nwutlodu8vljov/20200406_202135.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4yau221tg7r0xp/20200406_202717.jpg?dl=0

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Mon, 6 Apr 2020 - 19:34
Post #1561928

QUOTE (Nictastic @ Mon, 6 Apr 2020 - 20:29) *
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nwutlodu8vljov/20200406_202135.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4yau221tg7r0xp/20200406_202717.jpg?dl=0


You had a strong case before but they have made it a lot stronger. The correct time frame for you to pay is 28 days beginning with the date os service of the notice that is 2 working days after posting so they have taken from you 2 days to prepare your appeal or save up to pay. They cannot do that

CP is on this one, he won't miss that

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 19:17
Post #1562106

Indeed I would have expected this as the flaw in Rotherham's template is recorded on the PCN flaws spreadsheet.

The tribunal has put everything on hold and the council is unlikely to contest, so for now I would simply register the appear on the tribunal website and just write "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course".

If the council contests, I'll write the appeal wording and I'd be happy to represent you at the tribunal, we might even throw in a cheeky costs application depending on how much drivel the council puts in the case summary.

Posted by: Nictastic Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 20:34
Post #1562122

I'm a little confused. I thought by registering my appeal with the Tribunal, that it is now out of the council's hand and they cannot contest anything? The tribunal's decision is final, so should I not be giving an explanation of my appeal. I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit thick and obviously you know what you're talking about. I just want to clarify the process.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 21:48
Post #1562127

QUOTE (Nictastic @ Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 21:34) *
I'm a little confused. I thought by registering my appeal with the Tribunal, that it is now out of the council's hand and they cannot contest anything? The tribunal's decision is final, so should I not be giving an explanation of my appeal. I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit thick and obviously you know what you're talking about. I just want to clarify the process.


When you register your appeal the tribunal notify the council, they then decide if they want to contest it or not. If they do the regulations prescribe that they must deliver to the proper officer a copy of the PCN your representations and their notice of rejection. If they decide its to much trouble or they haver no chance the inform the proper officer that they do not contest. And you would win by default. If they decide to contest you will be told by the tribunal when you must submit evidence, its normally about a week before the case is decided so not before the beginning of June

Posted by: Nictastic Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 23:38
Post #1562135

Ah I understand now. Thank you for clarifying.

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