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Highview charge notice in hire car
anonymous57
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 12:51
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Hi all,

We rented a car when family visited and went to a retail park. A couple of weeks later the hirer had a letter from the hire company and a fee charge saying that the car had a parking ticket and that they had to give them the name of the hirer (as well as charging an admin fee, obviously).
It was 3 hours free parking and the car was in for 3 hrs 12 min, which of course, doesn't mean the car was parked for over 3 hours, just in. There was also a child under 2 who required to walk all the way back to Costa to change his nappy and also took a while to find a space and to get out of the car park. As they only have cameras at the entrance/exit, they don't know how long the car was actually parked.
Is there any way of not paying this? £42 if payed early, £82 otherwise.

Thank you very much

This post has been edited by anonymous57: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:55
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post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 12:51
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cabbyman
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 13:02
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No. They were given the name of the 'hirer' by the hire company. They still do not know the name of the 'driver' so EDIT your post to remove inappropriate wording. Refer only to the 'driver.' This is CRUCIAL.

Did they send a copy of the hire agreement with the PCN as required under PoFA?

Get back to the hire company and demand a refund of the fees charged. Their conditions will almost certainly only refer to statutory notices and fines. This is a speculative invoice.

Highview are easy to beat with a strong appeal. The current record stands at 2 hours. Put your initial appeal together and post it here for fine tuning.


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anonymous57
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 13:38
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Thank you for your reply.

Yes, they did send the hirer a copy of the hire agreement, and the T&C of the hire company say 'A reasonable administration fee for processing any fines or offences against the Vehicle, us, you, any Additional Driver or any other person you permitted to use the Vehicle during the Rental Period, unless caused through our own fault;' and I suppose this invoice is an 'offence against the vehicle'?

Also, if only one driver was allowed to drive the car there isn't much room for fighting and if the hirer said he wasn't driving, which he actually wasn't, I suppose the hire company could then come after him.

What arguments can the hirer use to appeal this invoice?

Thank you!

This post has been edited by anonymous57: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 15:05
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 13:44
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No, it is NOT an "offence". AN "offence" would be CRIMINAL. Fines can be civil (through the TMA2004 NOTHING ELSE) or criminal

So no, they had no permission to charge you anything. Ge tthat back from them, a separate matter.

Have you read other threads then?
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Sheffield Dave
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 13:57
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QUOTE (anonymous57 @ Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 14:38) *
Yes, they did send us a copy of the hire agreement,

Just for absolute clarity: do you mean that the hire company sent you a copy of the hire agreement (along with a copy of the NtK), or that HighView sent you a copy of the hire agreement (along with an original notice to hirer)? The distinction is very important.
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anonymous57
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 15:32
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It was the hire company who sent a copy of the hire agreement when the car got picked up, Highview only sent a new charge notice to the hirer.

This post has been edited by anonymous57: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 15:06
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ostell
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 21:29
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Forget about the hire company for the moment, that comes later. And they don't care now.

Do not identify the driver.

Has the hirer got a Notice To Keeper/Hirer from Highview in their own name? If yes did the letter also include a copy of the rental agreement AND a copy of the Notice to Keeper to the hire company?

If a notice in the hirer's own name has not been received then wait for it and then come back when it arrives

Also edit your posts so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver..........." etc. Post #6

Edit: Sorry I didn't fully read your last post. You have had a notice from Highview without the additional documents. Here's a letter to send to highview:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send this so that it arrives with Highview just before the end of 15 days from the date on their letter. This is important as it then gives them insufficient time to correct their error and issue another compliant notice.

Here's POFA if you want to have a read

And now for that charge by the hire company. What you, and they, received was nothing more than an invoice. Do the hire company's terms and conditions say that they may charge you for handling fines and penalties but make no mention of private parking invoices? If correct then they have no right to make that charge as their own T&Cs do not specify that. But leave that for later.



This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 21:50
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 09:29
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The hrie company CANNOT get the hirer in trouble

You are not saying "someone else other than the person named on the agreement drove"
You are saying they have not identified the DRIVER, which they have not. They have only identifiedi who *hired* the vehicle. There is a law that allows them to hold the HIRER responsible, but ONLY IF THE PPC SENDS THE HIRER A COPY OF THE HIRE AGREEMENT.

Which they have not done.

So stop tellin gthe entire world who drove! This is a public forum.
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Redivi
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 10:01
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Check the hire contract carefully to see exactly what it says about private parking notices

It may provide ammunition to request a charge-back for the payment

It's absurd that the hire companies' trade association, the BVRLA, lobbied for POFA but has never provided appropriate contract wording for its members

I personally think that the OFT should investigate possible collusion with these admin charges hat are remarkably consistent and greatly exceed the cost to the companies

An arrangement that they have with the parking operators means that they don't even have to provide copies of the hire documents
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anonymous57
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 10:09
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 22:29) *
Forget about the hire company for the moment, that comes later. And they don't care now.

Do not identify the driver.

Has the hirer got a Notice To Keeper/Hirer from Highview in their own name? If yes did the letter also include a copy of the rental agreement AND a copy of the Notice to Keeper to the hire company?

If a notice in the hirer's own name has not been received then wait for it and then come back when it arrives

Also edit your posts so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver..........." etc. Post #6

Edit: Sorry I didn't fully read your last post. You have had a notice from Highview without the additional documents. Here's a letter to send to highview:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send this so that it arrives with Highview just before the end of 15 days from the date on their letter. This is important as it then gives them insufficient time to correct their error and issue another compliant notice.

Here's POFA if you want to have a read

And now for that charge by the hire company. What you, and they, received was nothing more than an invoice. Do the hire company's terms and conditions say that they may charge you for handling fines and penalties but make no mention of private parking invoices? If correct then they have no right to make that charge as their own T&Cs do not specify that. But leave that for later.



Thank you very much for your reply, it is very helpful!

Yes, the hirer has the charge notice in its own name and but no other documents were sent.
Is it best to send this letter by post or online? Sorry this never happened before and don't know what the best way is.

About the hire company, the only thing T&C say about charging fees is 'A reasonable administration fee for processing any fines or offences against the Vehicle, us, you, any Additional Driver or any other person you permitted to use the Vehicle during the Rental Period, unless caused through our own fault;' so no mention about private parking invoices.

This post has been edited by anonymous57: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 15:08
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 10:15
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You do it the way they tell you to, of course

If you are forced to select any drop boxes, and none fit your situation, you obviously select any of them, and annotate your appeal to make it clear that in order to appeal you HAD to pic a box, none were suitable, so you selected "X" at random, and it does not give rise to any admission on your part.

AS I already told you, you get onto the hire company - entirely seperately - and challenge the fees because this is ONLY a private parking charge, it is NOT a fine and there was NO OFFENCE. The charge is therefore unauthorised and if they do not immediatley cancel / refund the charge, you will isue a charge back on your card, whcih you will win because theri T&C do not cover this. That the T&C do not cover it is not your fault nor your issue.
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cabbyman
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 17:40
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Search for posts by Dennis Basher. There is a letter somewhere that tells the hire company precisely what they have done wrong and what you require them to do to correct it.


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Redivi
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 17:49
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When my daughter ran a branch of a hire company, these charges were the single largest cause of complaints and she always cancelled them

Haven't we seen a thread where the bank refused the chargeback because it saw the difference between a fine and a parking notice as a technicality ?
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Umkomaas
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 20:44
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Edna Basher on MSE (Dennis Basher here) is an expert in dealing with hire/lease/PoFA issues. Have a look at how he appeals a Notice to Hirer via a template he has designed. It's here in the following link to the MSE NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 (near the foot of the post - not the foot of the whole thread). That in itself will see Highview off, but if not, I can't see any prospect of HV getting all the comparatively difficult ducks in a row to transfer liability to the hirer for them to have any chance against you at POPLA. Further reading of the EB post and PoFA, Schedule 4, paras 13/14 will bring you up to speed.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822

This is what the BVRLA agreed, on behalf of their members, how private parking charges (as opposed to council penalty parking charges) should be dealt with, in its Memorandum of Understanding with the BPA. Highview is a BPA AOS Operator.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/B...%20MoU.pdf?dl=0
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anonymous57
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 15:53
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Thank you all for your great advise!

Reading posts from Dennis Basher, he says that these companies have 21 days to re issue a charge notice with the documents they have failed to provide the first time but Ostell said to send the letter so it arrives just before the end of 15 days from the date on their letter. My question is, is it just before 21 or 15 days the hirer should wait to appeal? The letter says to submit the appeal within 28 days
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ostell
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:03
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Sorry, brain fart. They have 21 days from the day after the receipt of the letter from the hire company to get a notice to hirer out. For some reason I calculated that as 15 days remaining

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:10
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anonymous57
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:30
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lol it's fine. Sorry I'm a bit lost now, then how long does the hirer have now to submit the appeal? The notice to hirer is dated 19 days after the hire company sent them the details. Does that mean that the hirer can submit the appeal now and they won't have time to re issue with the missing documents or is it another 21 days from the date on the notice to hirer?
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ostell
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:39
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Problem is you don't know how long the letter took to get to the PPC but it looks as though you can send the appeal now. If the letter is saying 28 days then use that as the timing

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:41
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Albert Ross
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:43
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QUOTE (anonymous57 @ Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 20:30) *
[...]The notice to hirer is dated 19 days after the hire company sent them the details. [...]

So did you receive on day 21? It is not deemed to be received (if first class post was used) until two days after sending and if that was a Sunday...

Wait until the appeal cannot be countered before sending.

The Hirer has a 21 day window to submit an appeal

This post has been edited by Albert Ross: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:44


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ostell
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 19:46
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The company are saying she has 28 days.
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