[NIP Wizard] Incorrect Location of Offence |
[NIP Wizard] Incorrect Location of Offence |
Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 14:04
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Date of the offence: - July 2020 Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A243 Hook Rd nr Hawkhurst Gdns Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - How many current points do you have? - 0 Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Was driving in London on that date but not in this location - location of offence is incorrect. Unsure how to proceed with form. NIP Wizard Responses These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation: Have you received a NIP? - Yes Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes Were you driving? - No Do you know who was driving? - Yes NIP Wizard Recommendation Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 14:04:05 +0000 |
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Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 14:04
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Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 14:16
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 21:49
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would write back to the police asking for photos to aid in the identification of the driver, they are normally provided upon request. You never know, if you're lucky it might turn out to be a mis-read.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 19 Jul 2020 - 03:03
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Or an admin screw up with the wrong location used, we’ve seen that before.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sun, 19 Jul 2020 - 15:48
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#5
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,213 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
location of offence is incorrect. Unsure how to proceed with form. There is an allegation that the driver of a particular vehicle committed a particular offence at a particular time and place. If you would like to let us know how you know that the location is the incorrect detail, we might be better placed to advise. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Wed, 22 Jul 2020 - 19:28
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
Hello,
Thanks for your responses. I was not in that part of London identified on the NIP. I was in the Elephant and Castle area. I was not the driver but was in the car, so will identify the driver on the form. We were 7mph over the limit so it does say that the driver may be able to take an educational course instead of paying a fine and having penalty points. Still I would like to see the evidence of the location since I don't believe I was in the location cited. I thought I will fill out the form identifying the driver and add the below, does this sound ok? Thanks. Dear Sir/Madam Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) Number - ******** I am in receipt of the above numbered notice. As you are aware, where the driver was not stopped at the time, Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 requires that a Notice of Intended Prosecution, specifying, inter alia, the place where the alleged offence occurred, be sent to the Registered Keeper within 14 days. As you will be aware from your records, the place, as specified in this case was A243 Hook Rd nr Hawkhurst Gdns. I think that the police evidence of the location is inaccurate. I am entitled to a copy of the photographic or video evidence so that I can have its accuracy verified. On reviewing the evidence I expect to request a new NIP with a more accurate locus. Yours faithfully, |
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Wed, 22 Jul 2020 - 19:38
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
I am entitled to a copy of the photographic or video evidence so that I can have its accuracy verified. Are you? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Wed, 22 Jul 2020 - 19:45
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,746 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
I am entitled to a copy of the photographic or video evidence so that I can have its accuracy verified. Alas you are not. You can ask for "photographs to help identify the driver". There is no obligation to provide them but they usually do. They don't usually help with the driver's identity but they may help you identify the location. They may also help ensure it is your vehicle. Such a request does not extend the 28 days you have to reply. You need to be careful asking for "evidence" as they may simply proceed to charge you with "Failing to provide drivers details". Hook is down near Chessington, probably 15 miles or so from the Elephant & Castle. Were you in the Hook area at all that day? |
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Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 11:35
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 350 Joined: 18 Mar 2015 Member No.: 76,324 |
Know that camera very well, it's been there a very long time. And yes, that's Tolworth area of the A3, quite some miles from E&C. Could be a plate misread?
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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 - 15:14
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
Thanks for all the helpful comments so far. Just re-writing my letter to respond. I will identify the driver on the form and attaching the following, any comments of on the draft welcome. Thanks.
Dear Sir/Madam Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) Number - ******** I am in receipt of the above numbered notice. As you are aware, where the driver was not stopped at the time, Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 requires that a Notice of Intended Prosecution, specifying, inter alia, the place where the alleged offence occurred, be sent to the Registered Keeper within 14 days. In the NIP received, the place specified in this case was A243 Hook Rd nr Hawkhurst Gdns, allegedly recording the vehicle as driving at 37mph in a 30mph zone. However, I believe the location on the letter is incorrect, since this was not on the route that the vehicle was taking on that day. I was not driving when the alleged offence took place. I believe the driver at the time of the alleged offence is the person named on the form attached. But as noted here, I believe that the vehicle was not at the location identified on the NIP. If the NIP has not in fact correctly identified the location, it would mean that a new NIP would be needed specifying the correct place where the alleged offence occurred and would therefore be beyond the 14 day period required. Further, if the location is incorrect, this could also mean that the registration was incorrectly recorded (and therefore is not the vehicle for which I am the registered keeper); and that the driver was therefore not the person identified on the form. I am therefore requesting to review a copy of the photographs noted in your letter to aid in identifying the driver and location, and to ensure that I am in fact the registered keeper of the vehicle that was recorded. Yours faithfully, |
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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 - 16:04
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
I would suggest you approach it from the angle that it's the vehicle that has been identified wrongly, not the location.
I'd also omit the two paras beginning "If the NIP ...". They already know all that, and it's never a good idea to appear a smarta**e. |
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Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 16:24
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
Ok thank you, I'll get onto this, fingers crossed.
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Sun, 23 Aug 2020 - 10:52
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
Hello,
I received a photo of the car with location code 5546, and location address A243 Hook Road near Hawkhurst Gardens. However, looking on Google maps at that address, the road markings are not the same as in the photographs. I can write again stating this info with a photo attached from Google maps, of a speed camera at this location. Is there any way to look up the camera location code 5546 specifically, or am I correct in just finding the speed camera by address? Thanks |
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Sun, 23 Aug 2020 - 11:33
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
Hello, I received a photo of the car with location code 5546, and location address A243 Hook Road near Hawkhurst Gardens. However, looking on Google maps at that address, the road markings are not the same as in the photographs. I can write again stating this info with a photo attached from Google maps, of a speed camera at this location. Is there any way to look up the camera location code 5546 specifically, or am I correct in just finding the speed camera by address? Thanks The Google maps photo may be several years old. |
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Sun, 23 Aug 2020 - 12:04
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,746 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
Hello, I received a photo of the car with location code 5546, and location address A243 Hook Road near Hawkhurst Gardens. However, looking on Google maps at that address, the road markings are not the same as in the photographs. I can write again stating this info with a photo attached from Google maps, of a speed camera at this location. Is there any way to look up the camera location code 5546 specifically, or am I correct in just finding the speed camera by address? Thanks I'm not too sure what you are trying to get at here. Hawkhurst Gardens is a small side road off the A243. Are you saying that description of the location does not provide enough detail for you to recognise where it is? If your vehicle was never there, or at least not there at the time alleged, what exactly are you trying to establish? You suggest you were fifteen miles or so away. Was your car ever in the location alleged say on a different day or different time? Did your recognise your vehicle from the photos? I'm not too sure where you are going with this. |
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Sun, 23 Aug 2020 - 12:22
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Somewhat interestingly, 5546 is listed as 'A3205 Nine Elms Ln by Riverside Ct W/B SW8' - Here. (Which is not far from Elephant and Castle)
A243 Hook Road nr Hawkhurst Gdns N/B KT9 is 5548... Camera information from MET site. Perhaps they have messed up after all? (6 and 8 are quite similar) This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 - 12:27 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Thu, 27 Aug 2020 - 10:58
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
Thanks everyone.
Good reminder re Google maps potentially being out of date. I did recognise my vehicle but not the location. I don't believe the car was at that location but it would be helpful to gather as much information as possible. The car has not been there on any other date either. Ultimately I believe that there is a mix up of location and that the camera took a photo elsewhere from what is stated on the letter. The link to MET site is very helpful also since it indicates that there are 2 cameras at that location named on the letter. I will try to search for both of them to see what angles they show. I will also look at 5546 also which seems more likely, thanks for pointing that out. |
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Thu, 27 Aug 2020 - 12:58
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Member No.: 109,182 |
JIc you are spot on.
When I looked up the location for camera 5546 'A3205 Nine Elms Ln by Riverside Ct W/B SW8' - this was the location where the car was on that date. The road markings etc are the same and it was the area in which the car drove through. Then I reexamined the letters I received. The first NIP letter and subsequent letter with photographs incorrectly states the address/camera number; however the actual photographs in the most recent letter has the correct location code 5546. (the correct address however is nowhere to be seen) I would never have figured this out without your help so thank you! So what to do next? I suppose I write to the Met Police explaining their mistake, but does this invalidate the original NIP? Thanks |
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Thu, 27 Aug 2020 - 13:07
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
The issue here is that you have not been disadvantaged (ultimately) as you now know where the alleged offence occurred. As such a court may rule the NIP is valid (or may not). However if the MP accept your argument (and I wouldn't perhaps suggest you now know where the incident occurred, more that it didn't occur where you say) they are likely to drop the case.
So your S172 response has to be that the car was not at the location given at the relevant time and date, nor was it at all that day, that you were the keeper and had the keys and control of the car in question and that you cannot name the driver as there was no-one driving the car at that time and location. Suggest they check their photo's/records as you believe some mistake has been made. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 27 Aug 2020 - 13:17
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
How long do you have to reply to the s172?
This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 - 13:19 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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