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PCN issued after failed attempt to pay for parking
helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:39
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Leeds City Council issued this PCN in March 2020, Code 11 Parked without payment of the parking charge. It is not possible to pay at a machine in this area and you are forced to pay with ParkMobile. I parked in this area several days that week, the last of which being the day following the alleged contravention, and on each occasion the telephone system didn't work so I was unable to pay.

I sent them an anonymous appeal BY POST 5 days after the PCN was received, providing only the PCN number and the registration of the vehicle. I sent them the specific wording from the ParkMobile hotline when I attempted to pay, and photographs of the mobile phone showing that the parking hotline was called on multiple occasions. Unfortunately the mobile phone in question does not list every single individual call, but instead groups the total number of calls and the date and time of the last call made to the number. Stated clearly, I have no evidence to provide them that the hotline was called on the specific date in question. I thought that the appeal would be granted on the basis that beyond a reasonable doubt, an attempt was made to pay for parking in the week which the PCN was received.

This was completely ignored and I received an NtO in May 2020. I only received this today, but apparently it is deemed to have been served 2 working days after the date on the NtO, regardless of apparent delays which will be COVID19 related, which means I must appeal or pay by 10 June 2020. It appears I am also forced to do this by email because they ignored my first postal appeal. I disagree that I should be forced to provide them with an email address but will do so under duress if necessary. I have the proof of posting from the first letter I sent them.

Here’s the redacted PCN and NtO below.

Any ideas as to how I should proceed? The vehicle is registered at a Scottish address.

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:31
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post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:39
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:57
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Just found this on these forums:
Notice to Owner failing to describe in general terms or at all the form and manner in which an appeal to the adjudicator may be made. The notice states instead "We will tell you how to do this when we write to you".
2130536590
213008458A

How do I access these cases? Indeed my NtO says
"There are statutory grounds on which you may make Representions (see enclosed 'How to make representations' sheet). If you think that one of more of the listed grounds applies to your case, complete the form and return it to the Council. The letter you are sent if your Representations are unsuccessful will explain how you can appeal to an Independent Adjudicator."

I'm not sure I can claim that "the alleged contravention did not occur" because of course I didn't pay for parking because the payment system was faulty. Maybe I should choose "The Order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle is invalid"?

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:57
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:03
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QUOTE (helpzhelp @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:39) *
I sent them an anonymous appeal


What? How could they respond without a person to write to?

Nothing to lose by making reps against the NTO. They will probably reoffer the discount at least.

Who is the registered keeper - they must make reps or assign to someone on their behalf.

Post the docs on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. Leave all dates/times in.

See if there any council pics.
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:07
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The registered keeper is the driver on the date of the alleged offence. I didn't ask them to respond, just to cancel the PCN, which could have been done with the information provided.

Surely I shouldn't have to pay at all? It's not my fault their telephone payment system is faulty.

I was also hoping that the scottishness of the vehicle would make it difficult or impossible for the english to pursue/enforce.

I also thought (according to the forum rules post I read) that we should remove as many details as possible, such as date/time to stop the council indentifying me/my ticket.

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:26
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:15
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The council know who you are and the PCN - they sent an NTO to you at your address...

Ah so it's a Scottish car - I don't know the relevance - someone else will.

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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:16
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+1
We need to see the NTO and any other document not yet posted up.
This is the type of appeal I wrote a few years ago regarding the flaws both in the PCN and the NTO:-

PCN Number ??????

I wish to appeal against the PCN noted above since the Council has served an invalid PCN and an invalid Notice to Owner.

Each of these defective documents present a number of Procedural Improprieties which renders them ineffective for enforcement purposes because they contravene the enabling legislation.

1. The PCN states that failure to pay will result in an increased charge. This relates to the Charge Certificate procedure. The legislation does not impose a mandatory obligation on the Authority to serve a Charge Certificate where the Penalty Charge Notice remains unpaid and an appeal is not submitted. The legislation indicates the Council “may” but the Council indicates that charge “will” be increased rather than considering whether to do so under their discretionary power. This represents a procedural impropriety.

As regards the will/may situation I would refer the Council to TPT case UW05060M which adequately describes the issue.

2. The second issue on the PCN is that, in specifying that the charge will be increased and that action by baliffs will occur, the Council has indicated action will be taken well before it should. This step is procedurally premature and prejudicial to the PCN recipient.

This represents a procedural impropriety which renders the PCN a nullity and unenforceable. The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 clearly states:-

4(5) In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes in particular—

(a) the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than—
(i)in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
(ii)at the time or during the period when, it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken;

I argue that the Charge Certificate actions noted in a PCN mean the Council has taken a step long before it is due and therefore this represents a procedural impropriety.

3. The NTO is non compliant because it does not include the general form and manner of making an appeal to the TPT. It states that the NOR will do so which does not comply with Regulation 3(3)(e)of the Appeal Regulations.

The following case indicates the exact error:-

ETA Case: 2130236316

The Appellant submits that the NTO is defective in that it fails to comply with regulation 3(e) Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 which state:-

(3) A notice to owner served under regulation 19 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under that regulation, include the following information....
(e) in general terms, the form and manner in which an appeal may be made.

The NTO states ( having in a previous paragraph set out the procedures for the issue of the NOR and the right of appeal) "Please note that an adjudicator cannot allow the appeal on the basis of mitigating circumstances but may refer the case back to the authority. We will tell you how to make an appeal when we write to you."
The Appellant submits that this is insufficient to comply with regulation 3(e). Mr Hogan was unable to point to any other wording on the NTO which might satisfy the requirement. The only possible candidate might be the sentence further on "For more information about the representation and appeals process please visit (website address). However it seems to me that the requirement is clear enough and requires the Council to provide the information on the NTO itself, not to provide it at some future time or elsewhere. Mr Hogan points out that the information is included on the NOR. This is so, and there is an identically worded provision in regulation 6(1)( c) which requires it to be included. However the regulations clearly require this information to be given twice, i.e. on each document. The Council should have included something on the NTO in similar terms to its reference to the Appeal form etc set out on the NOR.

As the NTO is missing one of the items it is required to contain it is defective and its issue is a procedural impropriety.


In terms of this appeal I would remind the Council that an adjudicator shall allow an appeal under Appeal Regulation 7(2) if he or she concludes that a ground specified at 4(4)(f) applies.

Yours
Mick
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:42
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:15) *
The council know who you are and the PCN - they sent an NTO to you at your address...

Ah so it's a Scottish car - I don't know the relevance - someone else will.


The council didn't know who I am at the date and time they slapped a PCN on my car. I wrote to them to ask them to cancel it before the NtO was received. Maybe they issued an NtO because the first letter did not contain the name of a person, nor an address.

NtO Page 1 https://ibb.co/R4My0Td

NtO page 2 https://ibb.co/g7SDBxC

NtO page 3 https://ibb.co/8xb153x

NtO page 4 https://ibb.co/d4v26yr

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:53
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:52
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:16) *
+1


Yours
Mick



Thanks Mick, it's going to take me some time to digest all of that information and work out how it relates to my case. I need to work out how there are flaws in my PCN and NtO. I was hoping it wouldn't get to that point because I tried to pay for parking and the telephone system didn't work.

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:55
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:06
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Ok, managed to get the photos. This is the photo they took of the signage:

https://ibb.co/vX5dXfb

The green bit at the bottom is completely illegible in the photo. The other 2 photos show my vehicle, one with and one without the PCN on it

I have redacted the dates and times of the alleged offence because it says this in the sticky FAQ:

Step 2: Decide what details you need to remove

When asked to post a scan of a document you will usually be advised to "wash" or "scrub" it. What this means is that before you post it you should remove any details that would enable whoever issued the document to connect it to you. The reason is fairly obvious: posts in internet forums can be viewed by anyone, including people (e.g. the police, "safety camera" partnerships, private parking companies, councils) who you may not want to read posts discussing your options, what you did (or didn't) do, and what action you intend to take!

Peoples' initial reaction is often that this is simple - remove details like your name, address, registration mark and and driving licence number and the job's done. However the person or organisation issuing the document has all the information about it that you do; can they fill in the blanks using that knowledge? You need to consider a lot more than those obvious details, including:

How many similar documents might they have sent out with the same details as you've left visible on yours? For example, there will probably only be a handful of parking tickets issued for Wellington Car Park in Basingstoke on 19 February 2009; leave those details in your post and it will be easy to work out which ticket is yours.
How much time and effort might they put into identifying you? A private parking company after a £50 "fine" probably wouldn't spend more than a few minutes sorting through the "possibles", whereas an SCP with plenty of taxpayers' money to waste might think a couple of days sorting through hundreds of NIPs is worthwhile.
Do you understand what all the codes in the document mean? That apparently random 7-digit number might mean nothing to you, but it could be a unique reference number that would identify you to whoever came up with it.
Don't forget any payment slips! That helpful tear-off Giro payment slip almost certainly has unique identifiers on it.
Don't just focus on individual details. If there are several precise details in the document then individually they may mean nothing, but combined they might be unique to you. Even a sequence of events could be unique enough to allow your case to be located in the pile!


How many scottish vehicles will have been issued a PCN at the same date and time as mine?!

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:25
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:15
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Regarding being in Scotland:

Registration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre can be transferred to the Sheriff’s Court in Scotland so that enforcement can be carried out against a motorist whose vehicle is registered at an address in Scotland.

this I believe is current law.

You do not need to hide details for a council PCN which reminds me to get on with the council sticky revision...
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:18
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:15) *
You do not need to hide details for a council PCN which reminds me to get on with the council sticky revision...


Right so, I need to re-post all the images with the dates and times intact? Or could I just do a timeline and list all the dates/times? Do you also need to see the first letter I sent to them?

And it seems that the scottishness of a car has no effect on an english PCN, therefore it must be responded to.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:43
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helpzhelp
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:47
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PCN dated 13/03/2020 at 09:34. (parking should be paid for from 08:00 as indicated by signage in post #9 above)

Letter sent to Lcc parking services by post on 18/03/2020 https://ibb.co/R49G2c2

NtO dated 11/05/2020 (links in post #7 above) deemed to be served 13/05/2020 but not received until 26/05/2020.

This post has been edited by helpzhelp: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:05
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 07:01
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https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7910829,-1....6384!8i8192

OP---you make valid points in your challenge that the PBP system was not working/fit for purpose. Whether the Council were able to respond is moot given that you did not include your address. Maybe they hadn't got your DVLA details at that stage.

You should repeat those arguments in any appeal.

The NTO, as expected, is flawed so the appeal points I suggested are still worthwhile.

The NTO states------"An appeal form will be sent with the letter rejecting your representations.The form will explain how and when to appeal to an adjudicator"-


That's the issue/fault.

Mick
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cp8759
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 13:16
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QUOTE (helpzhelp @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:39) *
Unfortunately the mobile phone in question does not list every single individual call, but instead groups the total number of calls and the date and time of the last call made to the number.

Well, this is crucial. Who is your network provider? Most will allow you to see your call history online, thought you might have to create an online account with them if you've not done it already.


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helpzhelp
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 20:56
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 14:16) *
QUOTE (helpzhelp @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:39) *
Unfortunately the mobile phone in question does not list every single individual call, but instead groups the total number of calls and the date and time of the last call made to the number.

Well, this is crucial. Who is your network provider? Most will allow you to see your call history online, thought you might have to create an online account with them if you've not done it already.


It's a work phone. Only ever use it to phone parking hotlines in connection with work journeys. Don't have any access to the account.

I will appeal via email with a copy of the first letter I sent them, plus the points about the invalidity of the NtO that Mick kindly highlighted.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 10:25
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??

I don't follow MMV's points.

A PCN is not required to state anything about a CC, so how could any reference possibly be a PI unless it contradicts and therefore makes unclear a mandatory reference. This is not the case here IMO.

Furthermore, it is not correct to apply the will/may test to discretionary elements in a PCN, this has no place and is not a PI.

IMO, the PCN is substantially compliant.

As regards the NTO, the regs provide that a NTO must include the following information:

e)in general terms, the form and manner in which an appeal may be made.

The NTO says that an appeal form would be sent with any rejection and that 'the form will explain how and when to appeal to the adjudicator'.

You pays your money and you takes your choice as regards whether 'the information' as required has been included. Personally, I think you need to bolster your argument.

IMO, you should contact the council and ask for a copy of the appeal form by email and chase them if necessary. I would then look at what it says and if it is clear from the form (which hopefully uses the words 'form' and 'manner') that important information which the regs anticipate and imply would be available in the NTO has been withheld then specify this in your reps. Even better if the council do not respond to your request, in which case your argument is bolstered and IMO would win:

I anticipated information regarding the form and manner .....in the NTO e.g. would I have to attend, would I need a solicitor, how much would it cost, how much time would I be given (NB. given that I didn't receive the NTO until ** days after it was apparently posted). Do you get my drift? The sort of genuine concerns the average owner would ask, not one steeped in parking law, or lore for that matter.
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cp8759
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 11:25
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QUOTE (helpzhelp @ Thu, 28 May 2020 - 21:56) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 14:16) *
QUOTE (helpzhelp @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:39) *
Unfortunately the mobile phone in question does not list every single individual call, but instead groups the total number of calls and the date and time of the last call made to the number.

Well, this is crucial. Who is your network provider? Most will allow you to see your call history online, thought you might have to create an online account with them if you've not done it already.


It's a work phone. Only ever use it to phone parking hotlines in connection with work journeys. Don't have any access to the account.

I will appeal via email with a copy of the first letter I sent them, plus the points about the invalidity of the NtO that Mick kindly highlighted.

I think you should try and get your appeal ship-shape before firing it off. Most work phones are not registered for an online account, so give it a go. Whether it's EE, vodafone or whoever, just try registering an account on the website, you sometimes only need to input a confirmation code they send to the phone.

Alternatively, just ask your work for a copy of the call history, they should be able to pull it for you.

The NtO flaw argument is weak in the extreme.


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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 11:26
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@hca
I wondered when you would comment. We've had this conversation before and if I recall I mentioned this was one of Hippocrates grounds.

A PI can arise, in process terms, if a document states a proposed action well before it is due ---- as in the case of increasing the charge and bailiff action.
General Regs----

4(5) In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes in particular—

(a) the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than—
(i) in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
(ii) at the time or during the period when, it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken;


I am happy that the appeal I drafted is sufficient, in itself, to win. If you want to add possible menaces/extortion at the PCN stage I am happy for you to add to the draft.

In another Leeds thread on the same issues cp8759 has suggested any draft should include some up to date will/may cases---Ammar Abdul Hadi v Coventry City Council (CV00067-1902, 05 April 2019) and David Chapman v Portsmouth City Council (PO00086-1811, 09 January 2019).


Mick


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cp8759
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 11:43
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@Mick I don't think that's a will / may flaw, I think it's just saying that if a representation is rejected, the appeal form will be sent. Don't forget documents must be read as a whole and the phrase you have quoted comes right after "If your representations are rejected...", so it conveys a possibility rather than a foregone conclusion.


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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 15:44
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http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...st&p=686631

The PCN says "Failure to pay at this stage will result in the penalty charge increasing by 50%" Pretty definite to me even though it should not be mentioned on the PCN.

The Leeds NOR was flawed too if we get to that stage.

For the OP's benefit, this sort of challenge has been successful in the past. Have a look through past Leeds cases.


Mick
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