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Clamped on private land - help needed
glenn2ns
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 10:05
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Hi all,

My first time to this forum - i discovered it this week when searching for advice for the problem i am looking to resolve.

On Monday 10th Oct my partner parked near to her dentists in Talbot Village, Poole. The car park she parked in was very close to the dentists and when she pulled into it she saw no 'no parking - clamping in operation signs'

On her return to her car, she found the clamp attached to it. It was clamped by a company called FSW Security. On investigating the company further, it seems they were formed from the merger between SW Security and First Step Security.

My partner was told that she would have to pay £180 to have the car released, either by cash or cheque with guarantee card (no debit/credit card option)

I'm having a few issues uploading the pics to this site, so until i manage to work it out, please believe me when i say that the signage in the car park was woefully inadequate and I am pretty sure a judge would side with us. There is one sign in the carpark regarding the clamping which is placed quite high up a tree, at an angle and not easily visible at all to people parking there.

The problems we are facing with this are that we don't know who the landowner is to send them a notice before action, and we are finding it hard to find out exactly who runs the firm and where they live (to send them the same letter)

On the ticket they left, it states the location of the car as 'Premier CP' (There is a 'premier' shop next to where the car was parked. However, the shop staff either don't know who owns the land on which we were parked, or do know and won't tell us. They won't confirm whether the clampers are working on their behalf or not, even though the ticket says Premier CP. We have enquired with all other local businesses and the housing association that owns a block of flats next to the site also but no one knows who the owners are.

Also, on the ticket, the clampers have given a PO Box number as their address. I have contacted Royal Mail to find out the real address behind the PO Box number but they claim the PO Box number has been deactivated. It was first deactivated in 2007 after being linked to an address now occupied by an estate agent (who knows nothing about the firm - he gets a few calls regarding the clampers) and they then told me it was reactivated and tied to another address in Poole, but was deactivated again in May 2010.
I visited the sorting office where the box is located and they confirmed that the clamping company are still collecting mail from the box - seems very dodgy to me considering according to Royal Mail central records the box has been deactivated for well over a year.

The guy who clamped the car, Shaun House is registered with the SIA. Have contacted them but they won't give me any personal info on this [mod edit]. The company is not registered with Companies House and they are also not registered/affiliated with the British Parking Association

When i searched for Shaun House on 192.com, one listing came up with that name and the postcode prefix of BH17 (The second address where the PO Box was linked to is in BH17) So I may be onto a winner with that address, but i have no way of confirming this.

We can obviousle go down the Land Registry route to find out the land owners after buying the maps of the area, but does any one know of any other way of finding out?

Also, with regards to the clamping firm, does anyone know of another way of finding out exactly where they live etc. The whole using a deactivated PO Box number is incredibly dodgy IMO

Many thanks in advance

Glenn

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 17:45
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post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 10:05
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Basfordlad
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 10:19
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With regards to the address you could hand deliver the letter.
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WageSlave
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 10:45
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Sounds like it's the shop's car park and the clampers operate on behalf of and at the behest of the people who own or run the shop. You can ask the business rates section of the local council who they have down as the person registered to pay business rates for the shop and what address they send the bills to. If they say they can't tell you because of the Data Protection Act just quote the relevnt section of the Act (s35 ?) back at them.

If you/your partner have to sue to get the money back you should sue the landowner, 'FSW Security (a firm)' as you say they're not a limited company, and you might also want to include the chap who clamped your car, Mr Shaun House, as a third defendant: he committed the trespass to goods, his employer is merely vicariously liable for this tort and vicarious liability is an additional liability and does not replace the employee's personal liability. You can just use the employer's address as the employee's address on the claim form but once proceedings are underway against him I don't see that the SIA could reasonably refuse to disclose to you his address and his date of birth. After all, if you get a CCJ against the guy you'll want to know that it will haunt him as it should.

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WageSlave
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 11:02
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I also see that this Shaun House character was working for the notorious DeVere Parking Services back in 2009

See http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/inde...t38988-100.html

I particularly like the letter from Devere where they sent back the notice before action addressed to Mr House saying "there is no such person at this address". They didn't say he wasn't working for them - and, of course, I rather expect that there were no persons of any name or description at Devere's address as that was probably just a mailing address anyway.
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glenn2ns
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 11:38
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Thanks guys,

Well i've just spoken to the fourth person @ Royal Mail. It transpires that the PO Box IS active (how the previous three people i spoke with thought it was deactivated god only knows!)

It is a collect only PO Box and there are two addresses tied to it so at least i know where to send both the NBA to. Still slightly dubious about sending the legal docs to these addresses I don't know for sure if Shaun House lives at either of the addresses. I suspect he does but I don't have proof.

I spoke to the SIA earlier today - they weren't budging on not giving me his details. With regards to the DPA, section S35 does anyone know how i go about using this to get the SIA to disclose his details? Is it just a case of quoting it or do I have to get a court order?

Also, should i go ahead and send the NBA without yet knowing who the landowner is? On the ticket it says any written challenges have to be submitted within 7 days, although without looking into it, i'm pretty sure they have just plucked this 7 days out of thin air.

Thanks again everyone
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WageSlave
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 12:07
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According to the Directorcheck website the address they have for Shaun House (date of birth 28/06/1966), he being a director of FIRST STEP SECURITY LIMITED, is:-

23 Hinton Road
Bournemouth
BH1 2EF

See http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/913298110

Per Companies House this address is (is also?) the company's R/O address

The same chap under his full name of Shaun Ivor House used to have an address of 14 Ballam Close, Upton, Poole, Dorset, BH16 5QU when he was the director of HOUSE AUTOS LIMITED but this company was dissolved back in May 1994


The checksure website gives a partial address for him of 'DORSET BH17 8BP' which looks like it must be the same address as 192.com will have for him. (Google says this postcode must be somewhere in Chalbury Close, Poole).

If you're local to the area you might want to visit the council offices or a library to check the full version of the electoral roll for both addresses.

Letters/court papers should reach Mr House's attention if they are sent to the 23 Hinton Road address given that this is the R/O address of his company. I think the law changed fairly recently so that directors no longer have to provide details to Companies House of their actual residential addresses. For a charge of £1 each though you could request copies of the relevant documents via the Companies House website ...

CH01 03/08/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / SHAUN HOUSE / 01/10/2009
CH01 26/03/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / SHAUN HOUSE / 01/06/2009
288a 03/09/2008 DIRECTOR APPOINTED SHAUN HOUSE

The 288a form predates the change in the law so it ought to show Mr House's 'real' address - s it was in Sept 2008, anyway ...





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glenn2ns
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 15:31
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Thanks WageSlave,

The letter is now going to the Hinton Road address, the PO Box number, the two addresses tied to the PO Box number, the manager/owner of the shop, and for the good it will do, copies are going to trading standards, the SIA and the two local councillors. Once i have details of the landowner they will be getting a copy too

Will def be hitting the local library this weekend to check the electoral roll too.

Will you updated on how I get on

Thanks again for your help
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southpaw82
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 17:49
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QUOTE (glenn2ns @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 12:38) *
I spoke to the SIA earlier today - they weren't budging on not giving me his details. With regards to the DPA, section S35 does anyone know how i go about using this to get the SIA to disclose his details? Is it just a case of quoting it or do I have to get a court order?


Section 35 is permissive - it allows the disclosure of personal data for legal proceedings etc. It does not require it. You would need a court order under some other power. Nevertheless, the SIA may release the information if you explain s. 35 to them, but I doubt it. As a police officer, I had to get court orders on government departments, even when investigating serious criminal offences.

Do we know who these guys bank with?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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EHBA
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 19:08
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QUOTE (WageSlave @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 13:07) *
According to the Directorcheck website the address they have for Shaun House (date of birth 28/06/1966), he being a director of FIRST STEP SECURITY LIMITED, is:-

23 Hinton Road
Bournemouth
BH1 2EF

.


I hardly need add that this is an accommodation address, virtual office, serviced office block in central Bournemouth
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WageSlave
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 19:37
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Might the Chalbury Close address be a real one? I didn't check Google Streetview earlier and am on the internet via my Kindle now so can't check. I sort of suspect it is going to be a bit of a Mickey Mouse address too.

If the form 228a filed with Companies House in 2008 doesn't show a real address for him either, perhaps the OP might engage the help of his friendly neighbourhood Trading Standards Officer. He should be able to ask his colleagues in the council tax section if they have him listed as a taxpayer anywhere.
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EHBA
post Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 22:00
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QUOTE (WageSlave @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 20:37) *
Might the Chalbury Close address be a real one? I didn't check Google Streetview earlier and am on the internet via my Kindle now so can't check. I sort of suspect it is going to be a bit of a Mickey Mouse address too.


Residential road on Canford Heath. Housepricespy.com suggests 75 dwellings. The BH17 8BP post codes are allocated to the odd numbered houses ( even numbered are 8BS )

http://www.housepricespy.com/england/poole/chalbury-close/


Even if you don't subscribe to 192.com a search on Shaun House and BH17 8BP gets him although he is not showing as being on the electoral register but he is showing as a Director. ( exactly the same 192,com status as Lee Kirsch )

It would probably be worth a drive down there but you might draw a blank on the electoral register
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Gan
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 07:49
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I sometimes Google addresses.

If they show a number of unrelated companies you will know that some are using it as a mail-drop
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glenn2ns
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 08:44
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Thanks everyone for their help,

The Royal Mail have the following two addresses linked to the PO Box number:

52 Kitchener Close, Poole, BH17 7HX and 28 Wavell Avenue, Poole, BH17 7HH - both roads happen to be right next to each other (not sure if this means anything or not though)

I pulled up the last change of particulars form from companies house - there is nothing interesting on here.
However, i also pulled up the 288a form from 2008 and it shows Shaun House's residential address to be 23 Hinton Road!
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glenn2ns
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 12:17
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (glenn2ns @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 12:38) *
I spoke to the SIA earlier today - they weren't budging on not giving me his details. With regards to the DPA, section S35 does anyone know how i go about using this to get the SIA to disclose his details? Is it just a case of quoting it or do I have to get a court order?


Section 35 is permissive - it allows the disclosure of personal data for legal proceedings etc. It does not require it. You would need a court order under some other power. Nevertheless, the SIA may release the information if you explain s. 35 to them, but I doubt it. As a police officer, I had to get court orders on government departments, even when investigating serious criminal offences.

Do we know who these guys bank with?


Thanks,

No idea who they bank with unfortunately - paid by cash so can't trace the payment back to a bank account angry.gif

Could you tell me how I would go about getting a court order?
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Alexis
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 13:32
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What was the company on the receipt? 'FSW Security', a non-limited company?

How sure are you that this bloke is at 52 Kitchener Close, Poole, BH17 7HX and 28 Wavell Avenue, Poole, BH17 7HH or 23 Hinton Road?

If you can find out for sure what his residential address, I think you'd be best off pursuing him as an individual, even more than any landowner.

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glenn2ns
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 13:58
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Yes it was FSW Security on the receipt.

After doing some digging online, it turns out FSW Security was formed from a merger from SW Security and First Step Security. The words 'FSW Security' on the receipt are actually printed on a sticker, and placed over the words 'SW Security'

The PO Box Number is in the name of SW Security, and Shaun House still appears to be a director of First Step Security.

However, i'm still not 100% that he is actually at any of these addresses - these are the only addresses i can find that are in any way linked to himself or the company. There is also the Chalbury Close address mentioned previously but i'm yet to find out the door number for this address yet.

I'm finding it incredibly hard to find out his actual residential address. Will be making a trip to Poole Civic Centre tomorrow to look through the electoral roll to see if he pops up at any of these addresses.
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WageSlave
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 14:22
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QUOTE (glenn2ns @ Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 13:17) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (glenn2ns @ Thu, 13 Oct 2011 - 12:38) *
I spoke to the SIA earlier today - they weren't budging on not giving me his details. With regards to the DPA, section S35 does anyone know how i go about using this to get the SIA to disclose his details? Is it just a case of quoting it or do I have to get a court order?


Section 35 is permissive - it allows the disclosure of personal data for legal proceedings etc. It does not require it. You would need a court order under some other power. Nevertheless, the SIA may release the information if you explain s. 35 to them, but I doubt it. As a police officer, I had to get court orders on government departments, even when investigating serious criminal offences.

Do we know who these guys bank with?


Thanks,

No idea who they bank with unfortunately - paid by cash so can't trace the payment back to a bank account angry.gif

Could you tell me how I would go about getting a court order?



Once proceedings are issued against all defendants you could try repeating the request to the SIA. If you can show them issued papers with a court number and all stamped up by the court then, who knows, they might respond more favourably. If they don't then you could, if you thought it necessary/worthwhile, make an application to the court on a standard N244 form (the form used for any type of application) that the SIA be ordered to disclose Mr House's application and renewal forms for his SIA licence. Being essentially a government quango I doubt they'd oppose it or turn up to the application hearing. You might get a letter back from them after you serve the application notice saying "we'll abide by whatever order the court makes". Now, if you were making an application for disclosure from the British Parking Association to get member information from their records they might oppose the application on general principles / out of general awkwardness as they wouldn't want their members to think that they'll roll over so easily. Orders for disclosure against non-parties are sometimes /still referred to as Norwich Pharmacal Orders, so named after a House of Lords case from dim and distant 1973 (Norwich Pharmacal Company & Ors v Customs And Excise [1973] UKHL 6) but the procedure is now to be found in Part 31.16 and 31.17 of the Civil Procedure Rules. If you look at the Rules you'll see that it refers to when "an application is made to the court under any Act for disclosure". The Act most commonly used/referred to in a County Court matter would be the County Courts Act 1984 (Section 53 is the relevant section of the Act)

To be honest, I'm not sure that I would bother making an application asking that the court require the SIA to disclose the addresses they might hold for the SIA. There's no guarantee that the addresses they hold will be where he actually lives. He might have given them his ex-wife's address, his granny's address, who knows?

If you can get your local Trading Standards officer on-side he may be able to make a request that the SIA would comply with and he/his colleagues might be able to search council tax databases, etc.

You could employ a tracing agency to try to find the guy's home address - a lot of them work on a no-trace, no fee basis.

In any event, you've got addresses for the guy now. I can't see that he would, for instance, be able to make an application to set aside a default judgment on the basis he never received it if the address it was sent to was the address he'd given to Companies House as his address.

Let us know how you get on with consulting the electoral roll for the odd-numbered houses in Chalbury Close, Poole.

This post has been edited by WageSlave: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 14:25
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WageSlave
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 14:33
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QUOTE (glenn2ns @ Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 14:58) *
I'm finding it incredibly hard to find out his actual residential address. Will be making a trip to Poole Civic Centre tomorrow to look through the electoral roll to see if he pops up at any of these addresses.



The staff who look after the electoral register can search it electronically for a name. Whether or not they'll do this for you if you ask nicely, I really don't know.
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glenn2ns
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 14:36
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You know your stuff!! Cheers.

Annoyingly i can't check the electoral roll tomorrow as the civic centre is only open M-F. I don't work local to home so it will have to wait until 26th Oct when i'm next home on a week day.

In the mean time I will be sending out the letters to all of the addresses I've found. Am also making another trip to the shop later this evening to deliver their letter in person and see if I can get any more info from them regarding the land owner etc. If they do know anything, maybe the threat of legal action will help persuade them to part with the info.

Am quite tempted to deliver the letters to the two Poole addresses by hand too. Good idea or not??
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WageSlave
post Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 15:01
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QUOTE (glenn2ns @ Fri, 14 Oct 2011 - 15:36) *
You know your stuff!! Cheers.

Annoyingly i can't check the electoral roll tomorrow as the civic centre is only open M-F. I don't work local to home so it will have to wait until 26th Oct when i'm next home on a week day.

In the mean time I will be sending out the letters to all of the addresses I've found. Am also making another trip to the shop later this evening to deliver their letter in person and see if I can get any more info from them regarding the land owner etc. If they do know anything, maybe the threat of legal action will help persuade them to part with the info.

Am quite tempted to deliver the letters to the two Poole addresses by hand too. Good idea or not??


Up to you really. If you're just going to post them through the letterbox and walk away, why not? While you're there you might note down the reg numbers of any vehicles parked on the drive, etc just in case one of them might be registered to Mr House. If you intend to ring the doorbell and ask if Mr House lives there before leaving your letter this might be more problematic. Person answering the door might say "Sorry mate, no one here of that name" (whether it's true or not). He (or she) might ask "what's this all about?" - and if the person you're speaking to is Mr House he might be upset if you give an honest answer. He'd be an idiot to get physical with you. You'd call the police and complain to the SIA to get his licence revoked. But you never know how upset these chaps might get if you drag them away from the telly while they're watching 'In the Night Garden'.


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