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Code 05u: Parked after the expiry of paid for time
mus0404
post Mon, 7 Jun 2021 - 22:55
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Hi all,

You have been highly recommended by a friend. Please I need your help. I have included all the relevant information below:

PCN:

https://ibb.co/t28gH1P
https://ibb.co/VH9sVRG

CEO Device:

https://ibb.co/9ttr8DL

Parking ticket_1

https://ibb.co/wd0mXwg

Parking ticket_2

https://ibb.co/1dtg5jd

parking sign

https://ibb.co/Pz9SBPZ

NoR

https://ibb.co/7KLRsHS

https://ibb.co/Gp4F93H


Basically, I paid for the first parking ticket using the council online method starting from 2:50pm - 3:05pm, after which I drove off and came back to complete my shopping about 80 minutes later. On my way to the shop, I tried to pay for the ticket but there was a glitch with internet connection. Eventually I managed to pay for the ticket at 4:32pm. By then the traffic warden had issued the PCN at 4:25pm.

I made an informal challenge. I explained what happened and that had the traffic warden applied the 10-minute grace period, the PCN would have been avoided. I also provided them with several parking ticks that I paid on previous occasions to show them that I frequent the place for shopping and that I had no plan to avoid paying for the ticket, but to no avail. They based their decision on the expiry of the first ticket. Please see the Notice of Rejection.

Please can you advice me where I stand with this.

Many thanks.

This post has been edited by mus0404: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 - 22:57
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post Mon, 7 Jun 2021 - 22:55
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cp8759
post Wed, 15 Sep 2021 - 21:20
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QUOTE (disgrunt @ Wed, 15 Sep 2021 - 12:27) *
Can you log in to the pcn online and check the history?

This is what I think disgrunt meant.


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mus0404
post Sat, 18 Sep 2021 - 23:13
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Interesting development. Received a letter from the LA which left me a bit confused:

https://ibb.co/vsLg9SD

1- Can you have two statutory documents (Charge Certificate and Notice of Rejection) active at the same time, as it is the case here?

2- Why have they given me 10 days to appeal to the tribunal. Where does that come from?

3- It was said here that the Charge Certificate can only be cancelled via the Order of Recovery by the Traffic Enforcement Centre, but the LA saying that I should appeal the NoR to the Tribunal. Please can someone clarify?

4- Offering the £40 again, is that a psychological tactic to make me feel grateful and pay it?

Your opinion and advice, as to what are my options, is truly appreciated.

This post has been edited by mus0404: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 - 23:21
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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 10:10
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So no letter of rejection and a CC?

I think the rejection may have gone astray but that's not your fault. There's no way you can appeal to the tribunal without it. But they say they are sending it.

I would just do nothing and wait and see what comes next. This latest letter looks like they recognise a CC was wrongly sent and the rejection wasn't sent. I take it you have not contacted the council since sending the formal reps to the NTO.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 10:13
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 18:09
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I would email them and see if they can send a copy of the NoR by email, just to speed things up a bit.


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mus0404
post Mon, 20 Sep 2021 - 20:56
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QUOTE (mus0404 @ Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 00:13) *
1- Can you have two statutory documents (Charge Certificate and Notice of Rejection) active at the same time, as it is the case here?

2- Why have they given me 10 days to appeal to the tribunal. Where does that come from?

3- It was said here that the Charge Certificate can only be cancelled via the Order of Recovery by the Traffic Enforcement Centre, but the LA saying that I should appeal the NoR to the Tribunal. Please can someone clarify?

4- Offering the £40 again, is that a psychological tactic to make me feel grateful and pay it?


Please can someone answer these questions so that I know where I stand and decide what to do next.

From what happened so far, is the LA at fault, and if so does it warrant the cancellation of the PCN?

Still no sign of the copy of NoR that the LA claimed to have posted on 16/9/21. Time is running short.
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disgrunt
post Mon, 20 Sep 2021 - 21:10
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Just relax, the authority issued a CC on 8th sept but claim to have sent the NOR on 16th.

I expect you’ll get the NOR tomorrow or the day after.

Yes this should warrant the cancellation of the PCN as the CC was issued prematurely.
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mus0404
post Mon, 20 Sep 2021 - 21:30
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QUOTE (disgrunt @ Mon, 20 Sep 2021 - 22:10) *
Just relax, the authority issued a CC on 8th sept but claim to have sent the NOR on 16th.

I expect you’ll get the NOR tomorrow or the day after.

Yes this should warrant the cancellation of the PCN as the CC was issued prematurely.


disgrunt, thank you for responding.

But they say that the NoR sent on 16th is a copy, implying that they sent the original NoR (that I did not receive) before issuing the CC. Does that prove prematurity of the CC?

Do I request the Tribunal to cancel the PCN?
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disgrunt
post Tue, 21 Sep 2021 - 08:02
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Did you contact the council about the CC? Is that what triggered their letter dated 16th?

You have 28 days from NOR to pay or appeal before a CC can be raised. For the CC not to be early means that the NOR they sent must have got to you by 10th August meaning a posting date of 6th August to allow for service.

It’s possible that they responded to your formal reps that quickly (6 working days) but until we know when they claim to have sent it we can’t be 100% sure the CC is premature.

Just wait for either the NOR copy to turn up or for the OfR when you will make a declaration that you made representations but never received a NOR.

Do Brent have an online portal for PCNs where you can go in and see the history? (Sometimes you’ll have to follow the pay pcn link to see this, but obviously you don’t pay)
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 21 Sep 2021 - 09:58
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OK so lets accept what we know at face value. A CC was sent because you did not respond after a NOR fine that's the correct procedure

What is not is the letter.

You cannot appeal without first receiving a NOR what you must do is wait upon the next document entitled an order for recovery. This gives you the opportunity to make a witness statement to the effect that you did not receive the NOR

Once you submit this the TEC will revoke the NOR and the CC. The council will then have to refer to the tribunal for direction. In this case the standing order will be applied that a new of the NOR be sent to you allowing the usual 28 days to pay the penalty or to appeal

Forget the letters arbitrary 10 day period or the stupid 14 day to pay bumf stick to the only legal process and wait for the OfR. The council can do nothing until that is served


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mus0404
post Thu, 23 Sep 2021 - 22:54
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Long last! A copy of the NoR has arrived. According to it, it was issued on 3/8/21. Here it is:


https://ibb.co/1QDFg0N

https://ibb.co/mCw26Np

https://ibb.co/TcptsbG

I am still waiting for someone to clarify the following please:

Do I have to wait for the OfR to turn up, when the LA is saying I can appeal the NoR to the tribunal? If I go to the tribunal, what happens to the CC? I am quite confused.

This post has been edited by mus0404: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 - 22:54
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disgrunt
post Fri, 24 Sep 2021 - 07:00
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The process is wait for the order of recovery.

I would be wary stepping outside this process as that usually leads to bigger problems.

If you register the appeal with the adjudicator how does the cc get cancelled, it might sit there and somebody finds it and issues the order for recovery a couple of years down the line.
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cp8759
post Fri, 24 Sep 2021 - 15:20
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If you register an appeal and the adjudicator agrees to register the appeal (either because they accept the date of service of the NoR is today, or because they agree to register it out of time), the CC gets cancelled as soon as the tribunal notifies the council.

However there is always a risk that the tribunal might say that you're past the 28 day deadline and it's too late to appeal, while with the OfR process the county court has no discretion and they have to order the cancellation of the OfR and the CC, providing you don't miss the deadline.

The waiting for the OfR is the more risk averse approach.


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mus0404
post Sat, 25 Sep 2021 - 21:16
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 25 Jul 2021 - 16:40) *
Dear Sir,

Re: PCN *****; VRM ****
Contravention: Parked after the expiry of paid-for time

I refer to the above, my representations dated ** (I don’t know, pl insert) and your rejection dated 30 May. In these the authority acknowledged the substance of my initial representations that I parked in the road twice, once at approx.2.50pm for which I obtained parking rights which commenced at 2.50pm and ended at 3.05pm, see enclosed, and for a second time shortly before 4.25pm for which I obtained parking rights which commenced at 4.32pm, see enclosed. I acknowledge that I purchased these after leaving the parking place but none the less did so as soon as I could having regard to an unreliable internet connection.

Presumably the CEO saw my car once only, that is after I parked for the second time and on checking found that I had bought parking rights and that these had expired at 3.05pm, some 80 minutes prior to him observing my car. He assumed that I had remained parked for the whole of the period 2.50pm to 4.32pm (some 90 minutes after the end of paid-for time) and proceeded to issue a PCN on this basis for the above contravention.

As a matter of law, if I left the parking place at around 3.05pm(in fact I did so a littler earlier, my stop being very short) and re-parked as stated then the contravention is incorrect and as such the PCN must be cancelled. In their response, the authority clearly accepted that I re-parked because this referred to ‘..once you have left the location for the long period 15.05. You have to purchase new parking time’ I accept that I returned to the parking place within the 2-hour window and also that on the second occasion it could be argued that I did not purchase parking rights in a timely manner. However, while either of these could give rise to a contravention, neither does for the actual contravention grounds stated in the PCN.

I apologise for the error of my ways but must never the less require the authority to cancel the PCN.

Wait for comments from others.


hcandersen, what do you think of the quality of their NoR, does it address the challenge in the reps above?

If I am to appeal it, do I need to add anything else to what was said in the reps?

This post has been edited by mus0404: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 - 21:19
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hcandersen
post Thu, 30 Sep 2021 - 13:54
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OP, there is only one option IMO, wait for the OfR.

Why?

Because you did not receive the NOR.

But they sent one, surely?

Yes, but you did not receive it.

But I have received it.

No you haven't, read their letter: '(a copy of which has been sent in the post today)' (my emphasis).

A copy is not a NOR for the purposes of the regs.(regs which do not recognise the sort of extra-procedural correspondence which they've sent).

As with others, wait for the OfR.

As regards the content of the NOR - which you'd need to get to eventually because it's one of the primary items of evidence at the tribunal - let's analyse it:

Firstly, it's incomplete - see page 2, para. 3, lines 2&3: To appeal please refer to the enclosed notice of appeal form and guidance notes'
As some of the the NOR's mandatory elements are missing, presumably in the enclosed notice, then without this the NOR's defective.
Did they send 'the notice of appeal form and guidance notes'?

Secondly, their reasoning is pants: what is the likelihood that having parked you would be standing by your car just the CEO appeared despite not having paid, as if this is the only proof that you re-parked? They have ignored what you said, even if they say that they do not believe you, that's at least consideration.

Anyway, where's the 'enclosed ..form'? If the answer's that it wasn't sent, that's fine, and good.
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