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Redbridge PCN-01: Parked in a Restricted Street during prescribed hours, PCN for parking on a single yellow line
sirsyedian
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 01:48
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Hi Everyone,
Need some advise on a PCN that i got from Redbridge council last weekend.

Basically i got called by a friend to look into a water leak in his kitchen on a saturday morning. I got there with my plumbing supplies and parked in front of his house on a SYL. I didnt realise that the area was part of the CPZ and its hours of operation included Saturdays.
I wasnt there for long, but it was long enough to get a parking ticket. :-(

I have attached the copy of PCN and the pictures that have been uploaded on the council's website. Need some comments to see if i have any grounds for appeal on this one.?

I was thinking of contesting it on the duration of observation which as per the PCN was just 1 minute (11:15 to 11:16) which doesnot seem to be enough to rule out the exceptions for loading/unloading or assisted boarding etc. (Not specially stating that i was doing any of those)

Looking at the pictures though, there are pictures spanning almost 2 minutes (11:15:52 till 11:17:40).

Would really appreciate if you can kindly share your expert opinion and suggest the way forward on this.

Thanks

This post has been edited by sirsyedian: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 16:09
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post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 01:48
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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 08:55
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At what time did you park which, by the way, was probably also in contravention of the dropped footway prohibition?

The issue is what were you doing at the time of the contravention. Your comment '(Not specially stating that I was doing any of those)' seems to suggest that you were there for an extended period, but this is not the point, it's what you were doing 11.15-11.16.
Don't be economical with the truth pl, just let us have the facts.

The obs period is short and would not allow any reasonable CEO sufficient time to consider loading etc. You're perfectly entitled to put this to them and get them to tell you what their standard practice is and why the CEO departed from this, if this happened.

And the back of the PCN pl.

14-day period ends on 23rd, so time's tight.
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sirsyedian
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 16:31
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Thanks for the response hcandersen,

Here are the details with the timelines.
I think I parked the car at that place around 10:45 and took out the plumbing supplies from my car into my friend's place. At that time, both the spots on his driveway were occupied so i just parked on the SYL.
Since that time, we have been coming in and out of the house to stop and start the main water valve which is next to the kerb and the car but didnt notice the CEO in the vicinity.

I noticed the PCN once i left his place around 11:30

Another thing to state is that I am NOT the owner of this car and borrowed it from a friend for that day as my car was in for MOT. so if i am to contest this PCN, what should be the process. I can contest online but in case of rejection, i believe the NTO will be sent to the registered owner?

The back of PCN is now attached. I had to remove one of hte car pictures to have space to upload this one.



Regarding the contest, i wasnt thinking at all about misrepresenting what i was actually doing over there.
I was just thinking if 1 mins obs time is a valid thing to have on a PCN and can it be used to make a point about its dismissal.

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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:13
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The 1 minute observation period would be a good point if your vehicle had been legitimately parked. Problem is, it wasn't, you accept you parked around half an hour before the PCN was issued, so you cannot claim the loading exemption (and lying to either the council or the tribunal is a criminal offence). You could retrace your steps and double check the CPZ signs are there (we've had the odd case recently where they were either missing or had been knocked out and were facing the pavement), but failing that the discount looks like a good option.


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sirsyedian
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:35
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Thanks cp8759,
Lying or even misrepresentation of facts was never on the cards.

TBH I wasn't really planning to contest the legitamacy of my parking (it was clearly wrong parking).
All i had in mind was to contest the 1 min obs time that the CEO didn't wait enough to rule out anyone doing an exemption activity and as such the PCN itself with this short observation time should be invalid.
I dont know whether there is any weight in the above contest, (that's the reason i have posted here for the expert opinion).

Thanks for the pointer. I will go to that vicinity tomorrow and will take a look at the signs in the area to see if they can provide any other way forward.
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sirsyedian
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 15:19
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I went to the area again following my steps and i could not find any sign in that area to indicate its in a CPZ. Moreover the nearest parking bays have no signs at all and no parking meter to indicate any specific parking restrictions.

My route to the area was Ilford station -> Station Rd -> Havelock Street -> Haynault Street -> Ley Street -> Brisbane Road -> (left onto) Balfour Road.
I have taken pictures for the entry point into Brisbane road, its junction with Thorold Road and Balfour Road which does not show any signs to indicate parking restrictions or CPZ.

Area where i parked

Looking at Redbridge's website, i cant see Balfour Road being in any CPZ (not sure if i am missing anything)
https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/map/permit-parking-zones

Kindly advise.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 15:52
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It must be in a zone. There are these signs on Ley Street - maybe council hasn't updated its maps.

Whenever you encounter a yellow line without a time plate you must suspect a CPZ.


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5725288,0.0...6384!8i8192
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sirsyedian
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 17:35
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Thanks stamfordman,
I had to backtrack further and i did finally find a CPZ sign, right as we enter Ilford from A-406 (North Circular).

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5565407,0.0...6384!8i8192

That's like a mile out from where i parked but nevertheless, sign is there.
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cp8759
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 17:46
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You could try arguing there should have been a repeater.


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sirsyedian
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:03
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Thanks. I will draft something and will share for review before sending it to the council.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:08
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Looking at GSV, Balfour Rd looks like it's all single yellow - there aren't even any bays to give you a clue as to what the CPZ times might be there. You'd have to drive around looking for a bay, and even then you couldn't be sure. You'd have to drive to the edge of the zone, but you wouldn't know where that was as it's some way away and you might not spot it as you didn't on the way in.

In fact there is a small bay - but i can't see a bay sign...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5646677,0.0...6384!8i8192

and round the corner no bay signs and free parking - unless they;ve put signs up since March

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5651426,0.0...6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:13
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cp8759
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:10
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The other angle is that even if I recalled seeing a CPZ sign, for how long are you reasonably expected to hold the restriction times in your head? Given how long it takes to drive in London traffic, you may well not park for 15-20 minutes after passing the CPZ sign, and we don't all have a photographic memory.


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John U.K.
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:25
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:10) *
The other angle is that even if I recalled seeing a CPZ sign, for how long are you reasonably expected to hold the restriction times in your head? Given how long it takes to drive in London traffic, you may well not park for 15-20 minutes after passing the CPZ sign, and we don't all have a photographic memory.


There used to be some {Secretary of State??) guidance about not having over-large CPZs which appeared regularly in forum posts.
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sirsyedian
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:31
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QUOTE
and round the corner no bay signs and free parking - unless they;ve put signs up since March

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5651426,0.0...6384!8i8192


I checked those bays on Brisbane Rd today and they still have no signs.


Is there any guideline on how frequent (how much distance apart) should be such CPZ signs, that can be referred? or is it all upto council's discretion.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:44
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:25) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:10) *
The other angle is that even if I recalled seeing a CPZ sign, for how long are you reasonably expected to hold the restriction times in your head? Given how long it takes to drive in London traffic, you may well not park for 15-20 minutes after passing the CPZ sign, and we don't all have a photographic memory.


There used to be some {Secretary of State??) guidance about not having over-large CPZs which appeared regularly in forum posts.


It is appendix D5 of the operational guidance. This has been discontinued

I pinched this from bogsy some time ago, and whilst the guidance is no longer current it may go towards the signage being inadequate


At the time of parking I was unaware that I was doing so during the operational hours of the no waiting restriction. I do not recall seeing any traffic sign that conveyed this. I have since learned that the location is within a controlled parking zone (CPZ). When replying to this appeal, it will be helpful if the council confirms all those roads where the relevant CPZ entry signage is placed. I understand that a no waiting restriction is regulated by order made pursuant to the RTRA 1984 and consequently a council has a statutory duty under regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 to place traffic signs that adequately convey the effect of such an order. Where CPZ’s are used then adequacy can reasonably be measured against what the DfT recommends in their publication “Operational Guidance to Local Authorities: Parking Policy & Enforcement”. Annex D in this publication is helpfully titled “Appraising the adequacy of traffic signs, plating and road markings” and paragraph D5 provides guidance on adequacy for CPZ’s;

D5 The Secretary of State's view is that motorists cannot reasonably be expected to read, understand and remember the parking restrictions at the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone that covers an area of more than a dozen streets.

I’m informed that the CPZ I unwittingly parked within covers more streets than what the Secretary of State considers reasonable to enable a CPZ entry sign to remain adequate and therefore I believe I am justified in claiming the operational period of the no waiting restriction was not adequately conveyed by traffic signs to satisfy regulations and the standard expected by the Secretary of State. It would be arrogant of the council to disagree considering the publication explicitly expresses the view of Government and was specifically produced to help councils understand what is and is not considered adequate. Had the no waiting restriction been adequately conveyed then I as a law abiding citizen would not have parked where it is prohibited.


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stamfordman
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:51
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However, you might reasonably have wondered why, near to a shopping area, no one else was parked on the single yellows...
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cp8759
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 19:21
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:51) *
However, you might reasonably have wondered why, near to a shopping area, no one else was parked on the single yellows...

You can't park in contravention of the regulations just because lots of other people have (as councils love to tell us), this must work both ways. Ergo, the fact that nobody else parked there is not an indication that parking is prohibited.


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sirsyedian
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:00
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Thanks a lot for advise. Using the text from above posts (and some additions from another post), i have drafted this email. I understand that the guiodelines might be old but i am not sure if there are any other guidelines regarding the CPZ signage that can be referenced here.
I do remember the roadworks that were ongoing that week so i have referenced to that as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: PCN AF********* on Vehicle **** *** on 10/11/2018

I wish to challenge the PCN that was issued to my vehicle on 10/11/2018 at BALFOUR ROAD IG1.

While I do not dispute the fact that I was parked on a single yellow line, I would like to challenge the PCN on the following two points.

Firstly, At the time of parking I was unaware that I was doing so during the operational hours of a no waiting restriction. I do not recall seeing any traffic sign that conveyed this. I have since learned that the location is within a controlled parking zone (CPZ). When replying to this appeal, it will be helpful if the council confirms all those roads where the relevant CPZ entry signage has been placed and when the signage was last inspected and confirmed to be fully present and correct.

I understand that a no waiting restriction is regulated by order made pursuant to the RTRA 1984 and consequently a council has a statutory duty under regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 to place traffic signs that adequately convey the effect of such an order. Where CPZ’s are used then adequacy can reasonably be measured against what the DfT recommends in their publication “Operational Guidance to Local Authorities: Parking Policy & Enforcement”. Annex D in this publication is helpfully titled “Appraising the adequacy of traffic signs, plating and road markings” and paragraph D5 and D6 provides guidance on adequacy for CPZ’s;

D5 The Secretary of State's view is that motorists cannot reasonably be expected to read, understand and remember the parking restrictions at the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone that covers an area of more than a dozen streets.

D6 Unless unavoidable, they should not be close to junctions on busy roads, where motorists are likely to be concentrating on direction signs, traffic lights and other directional manoeuvring

I’m informed that the CPZ I unwittingly parked within covers more streets than what the Secretary of State considers reasonable to enable a CPZ entry sign to remain adequate and therefore I believe I am justified in claiming the operational period of the no waiting restriction was not adequately conveyed by traffic signs to satisfy regulations and the standard expected by the Secretary of State.

I entered the CPZ by turning right from the A460 (North Circular) Ilford Exit onto Ilford Hill which is no doubt the busiest junction within Ilford area and this specific road was undergoing roadworks and the left lane towards ilford was closed for traffic making the traffic conditions worse than normal. With concentration on the merging traffic due to roadworks, i failed to notice the only CPZ sign in that direction. Furthermore, i drove further about 1.5 miles beofre i started looking for parking and there were clearly no signs posted near the area of the parking to indicate any such restrictions. This area (Balfour Road) is also not in the CPZs mentioned on council's website (https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/map/permit-parking-zones). I have also since checked parking bays on Balfour Road and the nearby Brisbane Road which have no signs posted at all to indicate any such restrictions.

Secondly, it should be noted that the observation time mentioned on the PCN is just 1 minute minute which is not enough to rule out any exemption activity (eg: loading/unloading and assisted boarding) being carried out.
The CEO manual clearly states that "setting down and/or picking up of passengers or to load or unload any personal luggage" is an exemption and as such CEO didnt adhere to these guidelines and the PCN should be invalid.

It would be arrogant of the council to disagree considering the publication explicitly expresses the view of Government and the guidelines were specifically produced to help councils understand what is and is not considered adequate. Had the no waiting restriction been adequately conveyed then I as a law abiding citizen would not have parked where it is prohibited.

I trust that the subject PCN will be cancelled in line with the above.

Yours faithfully
XXX

-------------------------------------------

Kindly advise if it makes any sense..
Since tomorrow is the last day for the discount so i plan to lodge this appeal later tonight so any advise would be really appreaciated.
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sirsyedian
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:11
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Another thing which got missed among the messages was the fact that I am NOT the registered owner of that car. So i want to understand the whole appeal process in that case.

1. I will lodge the appeal online via council's website.
2. In case of rejection, will the NTO be sent to the owner or to me using my details which i fillin at the time of appeal?

Moreover, the online contest form asks for the following "Reasons for challenging the PCN":
- The alleged contravention did not occur.
- The Penalty exceeds the relevant amount.
- Procedural Impropriety.
- Traffic order not valid.
- Other grounds.

Kindly advise which one of the above is relevent in my case?

Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:27
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QUOTE (sirsyedian @ Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:11) *
Another thing which got missed among the messages was the fact that I am NOT the registered owner of that car. So i want to understand the whole appeal process in that case.

1. I will lodge the appeal online via council's website.
2. In case of rejection, will the NTO be sent to the owner or to me using my details which i fillin at the time of appeal?

Moreover, the online contest form asks for the following "Reasons for challenging the PCN":
- The alleged contravention did not occur.
- The Penalty exceeds the relevant amount.
- Procedural Impropriety.
- Traffic order not valid.
- Other grounds.

Kindly advise which one of the above is relevent in my case?

Thanks


the contravention did not occur and

though the council should respond to your challenge to the address you give. They will only send the NTO to the person and at the address held by DVLA


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