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PCN - Interesting one?! 'No right turn' whilst reversing! Western Road, Romford, Was captured on a 'no right turn' camera whilst reversing
user69
post Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 23:09
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Hi guys,

Long term lurker, love what you do.

The driver was captured on a no right turn camera but interestingly, there was no right turn. Rather, the driver reversed into the right turn (thereby turning left?).
I've viewed their evidence on the portal and the video shows the vehicle heading backwards.


I think it's pretty obvious that I should appeal stating that no contravention occurred but I wanted to check with people much smarter than me, first, in case I cock it up smile.gif
Would that be the correct course to take?

Could you let me know if it's appropriate to mention in the appeal the reason for the reversing, e.g. that the driver was stopping to use phone in a safe place (genuine reason)? Or would this be negated somehow by the double yellows? Would it be better to state that they were turning around? (I'm not sure if they would be able to retrieve further footage from the cam that day but fyi if they could they'd see the car stopping there for a short amount of time)

I did a pretty thorough search and could find no threads like this one so at the least I hope this is a new one for you!


Location: Western Road, Romford - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5787357,0...6384!8i8192
Video here: https://youtu.be/JlbY3pQx6k0
Redacted PCN (let me know if I've redacted too much/you would like more info):






Note: I have since emailed the email address stated on the back page (today, 17/04) with a message along the lines of 'this only shows the vehicle moving backwards. Please confirm this is the correct video and no contravention occurred and cancel the PCN or alternatively, please provide the correct video').
Note 2: I recognise I've left this quite late with my last day to appeal and still be eligible for the reduced rate being on the 21st April. Any speedy replies would be greatly appreciated (although I doubt I'll get a reply from the email address regarding the above before the 21st).


Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance smile.gif

This post has been edited by user69: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 23:11
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user69
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 14:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 14:53) *
QUOTE (user69 @ Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 14:34) *
Hi all, my draft appeal below. It's looking thin but I think it might be ok for this stage of the appeal? Any feedback appreciated:

The alleged Contravention did not occur.

Your evidence shows a video of a vehicle driving past the entrance and then backing into the area. In other words, making a left turn.
After reviewing the TMO I can see it states simply ‘right into - the loading area, opposite to the Romford United Reformed Church Building’.
Therefore, the traffic management purpose of the 'no right turn' prohibition does not apply if you're turning left.

The vehicle made no prohibited manoeuvre and this PCN should be cancelled.


Almost but to make it clearer try

The CCTV evidence shows me passing this junction traveling left to right. It follows therefore that when I reversed into the turning it was in fact a left turn. It is a rightr turn that is prohibited. I know this from looking at GSV, from my direction of travel I would not be able to see a sign

I have perused the TMO creating this restriction. It is a restriction against turning right into the loading bay. The loading bay was gated and locked at that time of the morning and it would have been impossible to commit the contravention set out in the TMO For either or both of these reasons the contravention did not occur the PCN was served in error and must be cancelled.

To do otherwise in the face of the evidence, forcing me to tribunal would be wholly unreasonable, and frivolous bordering on the vexatious. There would be additional wasted cost to both the council and myself, I will surely seek recompense for my costs if I am required to take this route


Hi all,

Unfortunately, my appeal was rejected. I would welcome any advice on the next steps

Rejection letter:







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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 15:59
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OP---your money your choice, they have reoffered the discount.

Personally I would continue since their rationale for the contravention is pants. You must pass a restriction sign for that restriction to apply.


Perhaps they don't understand that if you turned right you would be in the Baptist Church not the loading bay.

Isn't there a case on the forum where a vehicle reversed past a no entry sign and the appeal was won?


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 13 May 2020 - 16:00
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 17 May 2020 - 15:30
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If you wish I will draft your appeal It must be submmited by the 27th so will do Tuesday or Wednesday if you respond


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:47
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 16:30) *
If you wish I will draft your appeal It must be submmited by the 27th so will do Tuesday or Wednesday if you respond


You have 7 days left to register an appeal. what is your intention


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user69
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:18
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Hi all, sorry for the lack of response (not sure I'm getting the email updates on this thread). With your support I would like to appeal. Sorry for leaving this so late. Should I base my appeal off of the one already submitted?

I'll try find that case you referenced Mick, thanks

This post has been edited by user69: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:30
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:53
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What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow.

The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed


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user69
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:03
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:53) *
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow.

The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed


Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back smile.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 09:09
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QUOTE (user69 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:03) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:53) *
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow.

The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed


Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back smile.gif


No it was not sensible, I said write full submission to follow because you have other grounds for appeal. When the council evidence is uploaded on the tribunal portal copy iy and link it to this thread, and if I have a bit of time I will try to do something


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 2 Jun 2020 - 20:47
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 10:09) *
QUOTE (user69 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:03) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:53) *
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow.

The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed


Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back smile.gif


No it was not sensible, I said write full submission to follow because you have other grounds for appeal. When the council evidence is uploaded on the tribunal portal copy iy and link it to this thread, and if I have a bit of time I will try to do something


Have you confirmation that the tribunal have registered your appeal and exactly what did you submit. You can drag defeat from te jaws of victory without response to us


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user69
post Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 17:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 2 Jun 2020 - 21:47) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 10:09) *
QUOTE (user69 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:03) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:53) *
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow.

The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed


Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back smile.gif


No it was not sensible, I said write full submission to follow because you have other grounds for appeal. When the council evidence is uploaded on the tribunal portal copy iy and link it to this thread, and if I have a bit of time I will try to do something


Have you confirmation that the tribunal have registered your appeal and exactly what did you submit. You can drag defeat from te jaws of victory without response to us


Hi PMB, yes, I've had confirmation that my appeal has been registered but no evidence uploaded by the council yet (checked by logging in > and checking under the Evidence section).

I submitted, firstly, the original appeal text you provided. I did tick 'further evidence to follow'. After you advised that that was erroneous, I added a further doc which stated just 'Full submissions to follow.', also ticking the 'further evidence to follow' box.

Sorry about the confusion, will follow your next steps more thoroughly! icon_redface.gif

This post has been edited by user69: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 17:58
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 14 Jun 2020 - 19:17
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Any update with this


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user69
post Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 15:13
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 14 Jun 2020 - 20:17) *
Any update with this


Hi PMB, they've uploaded a slew of docs. The summary from them states:
Summary of Appellant’s submission:
The appellant is appealing on the ground that there was no contravention. The appellant states
the CCTV evidence shows the vehicle passing this junction traveling left to right. The appellant
states that therefore when they reversed into the turning it was a left turn. The appellant states
that from the direction they were travelling in they would not have been able to see the sign. The
appellant states they have looked at the TMO for this location which shows a restriction for
turning left into the loading bay. The appellant states the loading bay was locked at the time
therefore the contravention would not have been able to occur even had they been travelling in
the right direction.

Councils Submission:
On Saturday the 21/03/2020 the Unattended Camera System located in Western Road, Romford
observed vehicle registration GU59FNS making a banned right turn. The London Borough of
Havering served the Penalty Charge Notice for contravention 50r: No Right Turn.
The Council have rejected the appeal on the ground that the CCTV footage shows the vehicle
make a banned turn. The version of events provided by the appellant are not disputed, however,
the direction the vehicle is travelling when it reverses is in the same direction as if the vehicle
was driving straight on towards the end of the road and roundabout, and turning into this
location. A left turn can only be made into this location when approaching from the direction of
the roundabout (see appendix one for a map of the area).
The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location
before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place. The signage is illuminated at night and
would have been visible in the appellants rear view and wing mirror.

I am satisfied that this Penalty Charge Notice has been served correctly and can find no grounds
for cancellation.



The full list of docs they uploaded:
  • Evidence Checklist.pdf
  • Summary.pdf (Category B - Case Summary and TMO)
  • DVLA Response.pdf (Category D - Registered keeper details, NTO and Enforcement Notice)
  • Evidence form K.pdf (Category K - Online media)
  • MTC TMO BANNED TURNS.pdf (Category B - Case Summary and TMO)
  • Formal Representation.pdf (Category E - Correspondence, representations and NOR)
  • Formal Rejection.pdf (Category E - Correspondence, representations and NOR)
  • Appendix One.pdf (Additional evidence) (this shows a satellite image of the area)
  • PCN.pdf (Category C - PCN, PA CEO notes, Witness Statements and photos)
  • 5293927.MP4 (Category K - Online media) (this is the original video we've seen)


I've attached the Summary, TMO and Appendix One but let me know if you require any of the others and I will redact and upload.

Just to let you know, my appearance is booked for July 16th

This post has been edited by user69: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 18:03
Attached File(s)
Attached File  MTC_TMO_BANNED_TURNS.pdf ( 273.7K ) Number of downloads: 47
Attached File  Appendix_One.pdf ( 411.19K ) Number of downloads: 40
Attached File  Summary.pdf ( 39.73K ) Number of downloads: 45
 
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stamfordman
post Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 15:26
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I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this:

The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location
before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 15:43
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:26) *
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this:

The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location
before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place.



Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions


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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 19:11
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I repeat, you must pass the prohibition sign for the contravention to occur.

I think whichever adjudicator decides the case will have a laugh at this Council's attempts to justify a contravention.

I particularly like their take on making a right turn from the correct direction, but in the wrong lane!

Can't ask for costs because of their stupidity but I would certainly float the idea that they have been vexatious in letting it get to this stage.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 19:46
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 20:11) *
I repeat, you must pass the prohibition sign for the contravention to occur.

I think whichever adjudicator decides the case will have a laugh at this Council's attempts to justify a contravention.

I particularly like their take on making a right turn from the correct direction, but in the wrong lane!

Can't ask for costs because of their stupidity but I would certainly float the idea that they have been vexatious in letting it get to this stage.

Mick



I'm on this Mick will draft an additional submission tomorrow

2160067728

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 20:24


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user69
post Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 13:24
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Thanks all for reviewing.



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:43) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:26) *
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this:

The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location
before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place.



Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions

Sorry, not too sure on this other than I know my appeal is booked for 16th July. I do recall seeing somewhere that I have to upload any further statements at least 3 days before the hearing though but I'm not sure on any other dates
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 13:49
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QUOTE (user69 @ Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 14:24) *
Thanks all for reviewing.



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:43) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:26) *
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this:

The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location
before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place.



Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions

Sorry, not too sure on this other than I know my appeal is booked for 16th July. I do recall seeing somewhere that I have to upload any further statements at least 3 days before the hearing though but I'm not sure on any other dates


Thats the date then you need to submit by the 11th so no problem hold fire for a bit i am looking for something that will help if i can find it

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 13:49


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user69
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 14:49) *
QUOTE (user69 @ Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 14:24) *
Thanks all for reviewing.



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:43) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 16:26) *
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this:

The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location
before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place.



Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions

Sorry, not too sure on this other than I know my appeal is booked for 16th July. I do recall seeing somewhere that I have to upload any further statements at least 3 days before the hearing though but I'm not sure on any other dates


Thats the date then you need to submit by the 11th so no problem hold fire for a bit i am looking for something that will help if i can find it

Gotcha, thanks.

Quick question: do we think attending the hearing in person would be necessary/beneficial (or has it been so with past cases)?
What would you do?
I ask as otherwise, it's a day's annual leave, 2+ hours and £20 on travel (but if you think attending is the right thing, I'm up for it)
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stamfordman
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:44
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The tribunal building is shut for normal business - personal hearings are currently by phone and usually don't take longer than 10-15 mins.

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