PCN - Interesting one?! 'No right turn' whilst reversing! Western Road, Romford, Was captured on a 'no right turn' camera whilst reversing |
PCN - Interesting one?! 'No right turn' whilst reversing! Western Road, Romford, Was captured on a 'no right turn' camera whilst reversing |
Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 23:09
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
Hi guys,
Long term lurker, love what you do. The driver was captured on a no right turn camera but interestingly, there was no right turn. Rather, the driver reversed into the right turn (thereby turning left?). I've viewed their evidence on the portal and the video shows the vehicle heading backwards. I think it's pretty obvious that I should appeal stating that no contravention occurred but I wanted to check with people much smarter than me, first, in case I cock it up Would that be the correct course to take? Could you let me know if it's appropriate to mention in the appeal the reason for the reversing, e.g. that the driver was stopping to use phone in a safe place (genuine reason)? Or would this be negated somehow by the double yellows? Would it be better to state that they were turning around? (I'm not sure if they would be able to retrieve further footage from the cam that day but fyi if they could they'd see the car stopping there for a short amount of time) I did a pretty thorough search and could find no threads like this one so at the least I hope this is a new one for you! Location: Western Road, Romford - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5787357,0...6384!8i8192 Video here: https://youtu.be/JlbY3pQx6k0 Redacted PCN (let me know if I've redacted too much/you would like more info): Note: I have since emailed the email address stated on the back page (today, 17/04) with a message along the lines of 'this only shows the vehicle moving backwards. Please confirm this is the correct video and no contravention occurred and cancel the PCN or alternatively, please provide the correct video'). Note 2: I recognise I've left this quite late with my last day to appeal and still be eligible for the reduced rate being on the 21st April. Any speedy replies would be greatly appreciated (although I doubt I'll get a reply from the email address regarding the above before the 21st). Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance This post has been edited by user69: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 23:11 |
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Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 23:09
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Wed, 13 May 2020 - 14:49
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
Hi all, my draft appeal below. It's looking thin but I think it might be ok for this stage of the appeal? Any feedback appreciated: The alleged Contravention did not occur. Almost but to make it clearer try The CCTV evidence shows me passing this junction traveling left to right. It follows therefore that when I reversed into the turning it was in fact a left turn. It is a rightr turn that is prohibited. I know this from looking at GSV, from my direction of travel I would not be able to see a sign I have perused the TMO creating this restriction. It is a restriction against turning right into the loading bay. The loading bay was gated and locked at that time of the morning and it would have been impossible to commit the contravention set out in the TMO For either or both of these reasons the contravention did not occur the PCN was served in error and must be cancelled. To do otherwise in the face of the evidence, forcing me to tribunal would be wholly unreasonable, and frivolous bordering on the vexatious. There would be additional wasted cost to both the council and myself, I will surely seek recompense for my costs if I am required to take this route Hi all, Unfortunately, my appeal was rejected. I would welcome any advice on the next steps Rejection letter: |
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Wed, 13 May 2020 - 15:59
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#22
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP---your money your choice, they have reoffered the discount.
Personally I would continue since their rationale for the contravention is pants. You must pass a restriction sign for that restriction to apply. Perhaps they don't understand that if you turned right you would be in the Baptist Church not the loading bay. Isn't there a case on the forum where a vehicle reversed past a no entry sign and the appeal was won? Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 13 May 2020 - 16:00 |
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Sun, 17 May 2020 - 15:30
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
If you wish I will draft your appeal It must be submmited by the 27th so will do Tuesday or Wednesday if you respond
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:47
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
If you wish I will draft your appeal It must be submmited by the 27th so will do Tuesday or Wednesday if you respond You have 7 days left to register an appeal. what is your intention -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:18
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
Hi all, sorry for the lack of response (not sure I'm getting the email updates on this thread). With your support I would like to appeal. Sorry for leaving this so late. Should I base my appeal off of the one already submitted?
I'll try find that case you referenced Mick, thanks This post has been edited by user69: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:30 |
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Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:53
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow.
The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:03
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow. The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back |
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Wed, 27 May 2020 - 09:09
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow. The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back No it was not sensible, I said write full submission to follow because you have other grounds for appeal. When the council evidence is uploaded on the tribunal portal copy iy and link it to this thread, and if I have a bit of time I will try to do something -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 2 Jun 2020 - 20:47
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow. The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back No it was not sensible, I said write full submission to follow because you have other grounds for appeal. When the council evidence is uploaded on the tribunal portal copy iy and link it to this thread, and if I have a bit of time I will try to do something Have you confirmation that the tribunal have registered your appeal and exactly what did you submit. You can drag defeat from te jaws of victory without response to us -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 17:57
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
What you will need to do is register your appeal. It must be done by tomorrow. The ground is contravention did not occur in the box for evidence write full submissions to follow. The tribunal will register your appeal tell us when this is confirmed Thanks PMB. That's done now. I submitted your excellent appeal text at the 'reinstatement' bit, hope that was sensible? Will let you know when I hear something back No it was not sensible, I said write full submission to follow because you have other grounds for appeal. When the council evidence is uploaded on the tribunal portal copy iy and link it to this thread, and if I have a bit of time I will try to do something Have you confirmation that the tribunal have registered your appeal and exactly what did you submit. You can drag defeat from te jaws of victory without response to us Hi PMB, yes, I've had confirmation that my appeal has been registered but no evidence uploaded by the council yet (checked by logging in > and checking under the Evidence section). I submitted, firstly, the original appeal text you provided. I did tick 'further evidence to follow'. After you advised that that was erroneous, I added a further doc which stated just 'Full submissions to follow.', also ticking the 'further evidence to follow' box. Sorry about the confusion, will follow your next steps more thoroughly! This post has been edited by user69: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 17:58 |
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Sun, 14 Jun 2020 - 19:17
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Any update with this
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 15:13
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
Any update with this Hi PMB, they've uploaded a slew of docs. The summary from them states: Summary of Appellant’s submission: The full list of docs they uploaded:
I've attached the Summary, TMO and Appendix One but let me know if you require any of the others and I will redact and upload. Just to let you know, my appearance is booked for July 16th This post has been edited by user69: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 18:03
Attached File(s)
MTC_TMO_BANNED_TURNS.pdf ( 273.7K )
Number of downloads: 47
Appendix_One.pdf ( 411.19K ) Number of downloads: 40 Summary.pdf ( 39.73K ) Number of downloads: 45 |
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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 15:26
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this:
The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place. |
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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 15:43
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this: The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place. Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 19:11
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#35
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
I repeat, you must pass the prohibition sign for the contravention to occur.
I think whichever adjudicator decides the case will have a laugh at this Council's attempts to justify a contravention. I particularly like their take on making a right turn from the correct direction, but in the wrong lane! Can't ask for costs because of their stupidity but I would certainly float the idea that they have been vexatious in letting it get to this stage. Mick |
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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 19:46
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I repeat, you must pass the prohibition sign for the contravention to occur. I think whichever adjudicator decides the case will have a laugh at this Council's attempts to justify a contravention. I particularly like their take on making a right turn from the correct direction, but in the wrong lane! Can't ask for costs because of their stupidity but I would certainly float the idea that they have been vexatious in letting it get to this stage. Mick I'm on this Mick will draft an additional submission tomorrow 2160067728 This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 - 20:24 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 13:24
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
Thanks all for reviewing.
I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this: The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place. Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions Sorry, not too sure on this other than I know my appeal is booked for 16th July. I do recall seeing somewhere that I have to upload any further statements at least 3 days before the hearing though but I'm not sure on any other dates |
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Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 13:49
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks all for reviewing. I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this: The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place. Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions Sorry, not too sure on this other than I know my appeal is booked for 16th July. I do recall seeing somewhere that I have to upload any further statements at least 3 days before the hearing though but I'm not sure on any other dates Thats the date then you need to submit by the 11th so no problem hold fire for a bit i am looking for something that will help if i can find it This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 - 13:49 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:37
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,506 |
Thanks all for reviewing. I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this: The keeper of the vehicle has a local address and therefore is likely to have been to this location before, therefore being aware of the restrictions in place. Dates Dates Dates. What are they when will the case come into the list and when has the adjudicator directed you file further submissions Sorry, not too sure on this other than I know my appeal is booked for 16th July. I do recall seeing somewhere that I have to upload any further statements at least 3 days before the hearing though but I'm not sure on any other dates Thats the date then you need to submit by the 11th so no problem hold fire for a bit i am looking for something that will help if i can find it Gotcha, thanks. Quick question: do we think attending the hearing in person would be necessary/beneficial (or has it been so with past cases)? What would you do? I ask as otherwise, it's a day's annual leave, 2+ hours and £20 on travel (but if you think attending is the right thing, I'm up for it) |
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Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:44
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
The tribunal building is shut for normal business - personal hearings are currently by phone and usually don't take longer than 10-15 mins.
This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:52 |
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