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PCN - Parked in Residents zone without valid permit, *Spoiler Alert*- I had a valid permit!
buslane27
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 14:51
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To provide a bit of context, I park in a residents' only parking zone in Westminster and I received two back to back PCNs on the 12/02 and 13/02. My permit had expired, and I hadn't noticed which was my fault and warranted the first PCN. When I saw the ticket on my windscreen I used my white Westminster badge in the interim whilst I immediately went into the office and applied for a permit the same day. I picked up my permit the next morning and displayed the permit on the dashboard along with my white badge

Whilst I was not surprised about the first PCN I was really shocked when I came back to my car in the evening of the 13th to see that I had received another ticket. The PCN claimed I had parked without a valid permit despite the permit being displayed on the dashboard. I looked at the pictures taken by the CEO but the pictures conveniently fail to take a picture of the part of the dashboard that had the permit on there.

I wrote an appeal highlighting;

• That I had displayed both my white badge and resident permit on my dashboard
• Mentioned that I was issued a new permit the morning of the 13th and displayed it in the car which does not tally up with this PCN that was issued in the afternoon
• The pictures taken by the CEO were taken far away and at an angle and therefore did not show the dashboard (only the windscreen)
• Included a scan of the valid permit and white badge

They rejected my appeal (see below)


I was surprised that they did not cancel the PCN when I provided a scan of the valid permit. I paid for the first PCN on the 12th as I acknowledge my fault for not renewing my permit on time but I am not prepared to pay for the second one especially as the alleged contravention didn’t occur! My premise is that I did have a permit and this was displayed. I know there have been instances where people have managed to get tickets cancelled on the basis that it fell off the windscreen/dashboard so surely providing proof of a valid permit should have been enough to cancel the ticket?. Furthermore, I also have a white badge that allows me to park in resident parking spaces within Westminster and the link they provided doesn’t mention anything about white badges not being permitted so I don’t understand their rationale.
I’ve now received the Notice to Owner



My questions now are;
• How can I word the challenge to ensure that I get this cancelled?
• I don’t understand why they mention an out of date permit? The permit was out of date for the ticket issued on the 12/02 but not the one for the 13/02?
• If it doesn’t get cancelled what would the next steps be?

Thank you in advance for your help! If anything needs clarification or if you would like to see the photos of the car that were taken by the CEO.
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post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 14:51
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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 15:18
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it's pointless blanking out locations - how can we make sense of things.

Westminster give 14 days grace on expired permits - how long was it expired.

The NTO you've posted is invalid because it's demanding a higher level penalty for a code 19. In fact a code 19w which means wrong zone.

Assuming you've paid the first one post the PCN for the second one and the council pics.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 15:22
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 15:25
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Show us all of the PCN and all of the challenge rejection

Stamf is right the NTO is demanding a higher penalty than allowed so the statutory ground penalty exceeds the relevant amount is made out and they must cancel. They probably won't but then at adjudication you can likely claim costs


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buslane27
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 17:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 16:18) *
it's pointless blanking out locations - how can we make sense of things.

Westminster give 14 days grace on expired permits - how long was it expired.

The NTO you've posted is invalid because it's demanding a higher level penalty for a code 19. In fact a code 19w which means wrong zone.

Assuming you've paid the first one post the PCN for the second one and the council pics.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.


Hi stamfordman - thanks for your help and reply!

Apologies the guidelines said to remove any identifiable information and I got a bit blanking happy with the editing! I have uploaded the full rejection with the location on imgur- https://imgur.com/pAgyCVm and https://imgur.com/fNgADfx.

To be honest, I believe it had expired a while ago which is why I had no problems with paying the first fine as I was in the wrong but the second one as mentioned I had a valid permit! I normally scan a copy of my PCNs to refer to later but as this was such a straightforward case to me I foolishly didn't do so this time. Is there a way to request a copy from the council and will it hurt my case if I do not have this to hand?

When you say council pics are you referring to the pictures of the car taken by the CEO of pictures of the signage? If you let me know which one you would like to see I'll upload them for you.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 16:25) *
Show us all of the PCN and all of the challenge rejection

Stamf is right the NTO is demanding a higher penalty than allowed so the statutory ground penalty exceeds the relevant amount is made out and they must cancel. They probably won't but then at adjudication you can likely claim costs


Hi PASTMYBEST, thank you for your reply and help! I didn't know about the different higher/lower penalty amounts but I did think the contravention code they had chosen was strange as even if the white badge holders weren't permitted to park, my permit was not 'invalid' nor was it after the 'expiry of paid for time'. If my subsequent appeals are rejected surely I wouldn't be expected to pay £130 when the lower penalty is £80?

What would be the best way for me to challenge this? Would it be on the basis of the incorrect code, the incorrect penalty or the fact I hold a valid permit dated for the 13th?
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 20:47
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QUOTE (buslane27 @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 18:14) *
What would be the best way for me to challenge this? Would it be on the basis of the incorrect code, the incorrect penalty or the fact I hold a valid permit dated for the 13th?

We can probably just write a representation for you, but in the first instance please upload all the CEO's pictures from both PCNs.


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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 20:50
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This is on a council estate that had private parking - I've checked and last year Westmsinter made a TMO that presumably turned it into on street.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 20:52
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Photos and documents, advice is likely flawed without seeing them


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buslane27
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 16:50
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I've uploaded the PCN and CEO pictures as requested

PCN

https://imgur.com/UQMbz9v
https://imgur.com/pQFT9TD
https://imgur.com/ePKh4TC


CEO Pictures of car

https://imgur.com/XHF4Au5
https://imgur.com/HXXe3Rb


Signage (taken by CEO)
https://imgur.com/YkxZf0M



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 21:50) *
This is on a council estate that had private parking - I've checked and last year Westmsinter made a TMO that presumably turned it into on street.



Sorry, I'm not quite sure what this means? I know it's private parking but I have a permit for the area that was in date and on my dashboard the day I received the second ticket.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 17:13
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They have not issued a PCN for not displaying a permit the suffix W is parking in the wrong zone so have you checked your permit is it valid for where you parked .


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stamfordman
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 17:36
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QUOTE (buslane27 @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 17:50) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 21:50) *
This is on a council estate that had private parking - I've checked and last year Westmsinter made a TMO that presumably turned it into on street.


Sorry, I'm not quite sure what this means? I know it's private parking but I have a permit for the area that was in date and on my dashboard the day I received the second ticket.



It was an estate car park with no bay signs - they've recently changed it so it is the same as on-street parking.

The PCN and NTO are wrong in demanding a higher level. But as we note the suffix w means they think your permit is for the wrong zone, not CHG, so you need to check this.

Also, what was the first PCN - was it also a code 19 and what penalty did you pay?
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cp8759
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:32
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Does the permit you have say CHG, like the sign?


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buslane27
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 01:05
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My permit is definitely valid for the CHG zone - you can check it out here https://imgur.com/KXVDl0I

They might be trying to say my white badge wasn't valid for the area but that point is moot as the permit was on the dashboard too and that is definitely valid.

I've looked at the previous PCN and the contravention code is 19z. I paid £65 but the full amount was £130. Even though the codes are different, it should have been the lower amount of £80 which if I've understood correctly means I should have been able to pay the reduced amount of £40. Also I've gone back to look at the date of expired permit and it was within the 14 day grace period! It had expired on 03.02 and the ticket was issued 9 days later on 12.02!. I feel so conned!! Next time even if I'm in the wrong I'll definitely chance it with an appeal if this is how devious the councils are!

How do you advise I word the challenge? I have already in the initial appeal stated that I hold a valid permit and that this was on the dashboard along with the white badge. I even sent scans of my permit with the date showing that it was valid from the 13th - the same day of the ticket!

Thank you all for your help by the way, it's very appreciated!

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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 06:27
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OP--if your white badge is Westminster's version of the Blue Badge then I would contend that, regardless of zone, you were legally parked.

Simply put, it means that if the parking bay/place has to be paid for e.g. a permit then the disability legislation indicates that a vehicle displaying a disabled badge can park.

This is one of the pieces of legislation that could apply:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/68...gulation/9/made

This of course relates to on street parking but the photo of the signpost in Churchill Gardens suggests this is so. The order is here:-

http://westminstertransportationservices.c...Vc1bkxuQmtaZz09

So my next question is are you a resident within the Churchill Gardens Estate?


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:36
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stamfordman
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 06:59
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I would also write to them about the paid PCN. Their policy states that only a warning PCN is issued in 1-14 days for an expired permit and the PCN was invalid anyway at the higher rate. They should give you your money back.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:25
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@MMV, you've skipped the all-important regulation 5:

Application
5.—(1) These Regulations apply to–
(a)any order made in relation to a road by a county or district council in England or by the Council of the Isles of Scilly under section 1, 9, 35, 45 or 46 of the 1984 Act;
(b)any order made in relation to a road by a London borough council or the Common Council of the City of London under section 6, 9, 45 and 46 of the 1984 Act except so far as the order applies to an excepted area or any part of one.
(2) Each of the following is an excepted area–
(a)the City of London;
(b)the City of Westminster;
©the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea;
(d)that part of the London borough of Camden, bounded by and including the borough boundary, Euston Road, Upper Woburn Place, Tavistock Square, Woburn Place, Russell Square, Southampton Row, Theobalds Road and Clerkenwell Road.


So BB do not apply to any road within 'the City of Westminster'.

We cannot guess as to whether a 'white badge' carries the same effect as a blue one because according to Westminster it does not!

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/where-you-ca...-disabled-badge

A white badge is invalid on 'WCC estates'.

OP, there's something not quite right about this whole saga. For example, the council offer to send renewal notifications for resident's permits 5 weeks in advance. So what happened to yours? When you applied for your 'white badge' you must have been made aware of where it could be used and yet from your account you have, it appears as a matter of routine, used it where it is not valid. Why? It is yours, isn't it?

I am not convinced that Churchill Gardens Estate is a road within the meaning of the Act and as the permit was not issued by the council as a 'local authority' but by 'Housing' then the whole issue gets more murky.

And as for 'When I saw the ticket on my windscreen I used my white Westminster badge in the interim whilst I immediately went into the office and applied for a permit the same day. I picked up my permit the next morning and displayed the permit on the dashboard along with my white badge'

This suggests you were parked near your business, that you drove from that particular parking place to wherever you collected your permit and then returned, but whether to the same parking place with the same conditions of use as before, who knows?

Can you pl repost their response but leave in all detail except the number of your address, but we must have road names.

And pl post or link their website link which clearly they consider is material and therefore we should peruse.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:37
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Yes. I agree that BBs are not exempt in Westminster but what legislation, other than traffic orders relates to the rights of White Badge holders?

This is the on street order for Churchill Gardens:-

http://westminstertransportationservices.c...Vc1bkxuQmtaZz09
+2020 Amendment:-
http://westminstertransportationservices.c...GlBeU15NXdaR1k9

If the OP is a resident why hasn't he got a disabled pass for the estate?

TBH stamf's point about the higher penalty should win this without too much navel gazing.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:58
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hcandersen
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 08:10
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I call it fact finding!

But as you say, the wrong penalty for the stated grounds should suffice...and should probably be the totality of the reps.

Perhaps the OP could use my concerns as an aide memoir and check matters at his leisure. rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 08:15
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stamfordman
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 08:16
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I think the BB is a red herring. OP has posted a permit for Churchill Gardens Estate and the PCN's location is Churchill Gardens Estate.

The council's CEO seems to have gone haywire on both PCNs and I would be making a simple rep on the higher level penalty on the current NTO and writing to them to ask for a refund on the first.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 08:49
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 09:16) *
I think the BB is a red herring. OP has posted a permit for Churchill Gardens Estate and the PCN's location is Churchill Gardens Estate.

The council's CEO seems to have gone haywire on both PCNs and I would be making a simple rep on the higher level penalty on the current NTO and writing to them to ask for a refund on the first.


the last 4 posts have pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Simple reps are needed

I had a valid permit on display it was located xxxxx on the windscreen your CEO unfortunately must have missed it. Here's a copy Please cancel the PCN

If you do not feel able to do so then please check the London council contravention list that you are obliged to follow. Code 19 in all its forms is a lower level penalty. You have demanded a sum in excess of this That being the higher level penalty, thus the statutory ground at 4(4)(e) of the appeals regulations of 2007

that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;

is made out and the PCN must be cancelled


The white badge lack of blue badge or anything to do with them are irrelevant they hare no bearing on the cited contravention. The definition of road for the purposes of the order may do but should not be needed but can be explored if this is rejected

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 08:52


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buslane27
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 09:03
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:27) *
OP--if your white badge is Westminster's version of the Blue Badge then I would contend that, regardless of zone, you were legally parked.

Simply put, it means that if the parking bay/place has to be paid for e.g. a permit then the disability legislation indicates that a vehicle displaying a disabled badge can park.

This is one of the pieces of legislation that could apply:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/68...gulation/9/made

This of course relates to on street parking but the photo of the signpost in Churchill Gardens suggests this is so. The order is here:-

http://westminstertransportationservices.c...Vc1bkxuQmtaZz09

So my next question is are you a resident within the Churchill Gardens Estate?


Mick


Hi Mick, thank you for your reply and help. To confirm yes I am a resident within the estate and the key difference between my white and blue badges is that my white badge should afford me the ability to be able to park in any resident or paid for bay within Westminster. I have looked into this and it appears that as of March last year white badges are no longer valid within WCC estates but there was no correspondence provided to my address to reflect this. Either way, in my opinion, in the case of the second PCN the badge validity or lack thereof is irrelevant as I hold a valid permit for the zone.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 09:16) *
I think the BB is a red herring. OP has posted a permit for Churchill Gardens Estate and the PCN's location is Churchill Gardens Estate.

The council's CEO seems to have gone haywire on both PCNs and I would be making a simple rep on the higher level penalty on the current NTO and writing to them to ask for a refund on the first.


I agree. I never used a blue badge as I know it's not accepted within Westminster resident bays but the council's point about the white badge is irrelevant as I have a valid permit as posted earlier!

So you think the best way to contest it is to use the point of the higher level penalty and not use the argument of the valid permit? I would love it if I could get my money back for the first PCN but I was under the impression that once you've paid for a ticket it was an admission and therefore councils were very reluctant to issue refunds? Thanks for your help again stamfordman!
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