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PCN in Cardiff with Blue Badge
matchstick
post Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 11:52
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Hi, hope someone can help with a Parking Ticket issued in December 2011. I had parked outside my sisters house (in my car) on a double yellow line in front of a bus stop, with my mum and her blue disabled badge.

On returning to the car it was dark and tipping down with rain, so as soon as I managed to get the kids in and drove away, I put the wipers on and caught something out of the corner of my eye coming off the windscreen. My son said it looked like a yellow ticket but wasn't sure. Couldnt stop anyway to look for a bit of paper in the rain so thought I should ring on Monday to the Council to check if I had been issued with a PCN.

With Xmas etc, it was January before I rang and was told, YES you had a PCN, and because of the delay it had gone from £35 to £70. Asked about appealing and was told to write in with details etc. I hand wrote a letter explaining the above with a copy of the badge number etc and said it was possible the badge had been left on the passenger seat instead of dashboard and could they waive the PCN or at least get it reduced to £35. This was the 10th January 2012.

I received a letter within a week saying it had been received and will be dealt with in due course.

Received a letter on the 26th April 2012 basically saying that the enforecment officer didnt see a badge, it wasnt displayed properly so they are satisfied that the PCN was served correctly and also would keep the penalty at £70. This really annoyed me, basically saying it was my word against the EO and they were not prepared to give me the benefit of the doubt.

I have now received a Notice to Owner (NtO) dated 11th June 2012. Not sure if I can post images directly here so I have provided links to photobucket. I have scanned all pages except the back of page 1 which says how to pay.

http://s1174.photobucket.com/albums/r609/matchstickman3/

I have to reply 11/07/12 to have an appeal considered. Any suggestions on what to write back to them with ?Reading other posts I can see that I should go back to the site and take pictures of the road markings and also the bus stop sign if there are any parking restrictions on there.

Thanks in advance for your help.



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post Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 11:52
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bama
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 19:01
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agreed. the six months is the patent out.



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Wed, 4 Jul 2012 - 05:07
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Thanks for the replies, very valid points from all.

So far I have;

1. PCN never received and was never told that I was allowed to receive or view a copy (so never actually served on me)

2. Yellow lines on that section of road (see photo) are broken and so make the illegal parking claim invalid

3. Date between PCN being 'served' and NtO (text of NtO says add two days unless proved otherwise) is more than 6 months and so has passed the limit set by TMA reg 9 (does the TMA still apply in Wales if they have their own regulations ?) and passed the boundaries of reasonableness anyway (but see next point).

4. I am unable to find the regulations quoted on the NtO and so cannot check if there is a time limit of 6 months and in any case cannot use them to establish if I am being prosecuted within the legal requirements.

If they Council reject all of the above points, would I be allowed to make the same case to the Adjuicator ? (I know I'm getting ahead of myself here).


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bama
post Wed, 4 Jul 2012 - 11:01
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QUOTE
(does the TMA still apply in Wales


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/notes/division/2
I would add to point 3 (and make it point 1 in the list)

The NTO is clearly unlawful as its creation date, much less its service date, exceeds the six months limit imposed by the TMA.
As a statutory creature the onus is on the council, and on all its employees who are public servants, at all times to act lawfully and only do things that are expressly or impliedly allowed by statute.

The council and its employees have failed in their public duty and breached their trust with the public.

I expect a written signed attributable apology from a duly appointed Officer of the Council within 14 days of your receipt of this document. I also expect a full and factual explanation of why the Council's back office systems and procedures have caused an unlawful document to be sent to the public.


smile.gif

chances of the written apology are so close to zero as to be insignificant.
However it sets up the S.151 complaint smile.gif smile.gif

This post has been edited by bama: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 - 11:19


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 4 Jul 2012 - 11:22
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The TMA is enabling legislation which means that it empowers the SoS and Welsh ministers to make regs: English regs for England and Welsh for Wales. They are as different as chalk and cheese in law so don't look at any other threads which will inevitably refer to English regs, you'll confuse yourself and us.

Reg 9 applies to English regs and does not apply in your case. If we knew what regs they were applying, we could find the right number (I think it's reg 5 in Wales).

You did receive a PCN - the fact that you didn't pick it up but washed it into oblivion is not the council's fault. So "I didn't receive a PCN" won't wash, neither would the PCN itself.

Yellow lines - forget it. It smacks of desperation. You've got a silver bullet, don't cloud the issue with froth.

3 & 4 - now you're talking. You really should make 3 more punchy - date of service of PCN X; date of service of NTO Y; Y - X > 6 months. They're b******d. And 4 - the regs cited by the council in the NTO are not extant and therefore the authority which the council are seeking to draw from those regs does not exist.

HCA
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matchstick
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 14:14
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Bit busy at work yesterday so no chance to reply then.

bama - blimey, you don't take any prisoners do you ? "a written signed attributable apology from a duly appointed Officer of the Council". I like it !

HCA - I see your point about the TMA reg 9 applying to english regs only, so is it best not to mention that in my reply but still make the point about 6 months even though its unclear whether that is the case in wales ?

I'll do a draft letter and post it up here later, although I don't think I can match bama's vigorous attack biggrin.gif =

= matchstick


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bama
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 14:24
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It is not an attack. It is merely holding public servants to be accountable for the failure to follow their inescapable duties and for their failure to act lawfully.

It only seems like an attack as public servants always try to dodge this. Don't fall into that mindset.
The public should hold their servants to proper standards, if we do not them who will.
My text merely gives them the opportunity to purge their transgressions and to do so honourably and with integrity.
If they don't (stop laughing at the back !) then it can become interesting... smile.gif

the 56 days applies (of course it does) see
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/60...gulation/5/made
which are linked to from
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2008/614...n/2/made#f00005

and so does the six months for service
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/60...ulation/12/made

This post has been edited by bama: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 14:35


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 16:19
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OK, here is the draft letter to reply to the NtO. Not sure about point 2 as Neil B. mentioned before that there is no time limit for informal representations, which is what the first appeal letter would have been.

Comments and amendments gratefully received.

Cardiff County Council
PO Box 47
Cardiff CF11 1QB
Thursday, 05 July 2012

Ref PCN: xxxxxxxxx
Served on : 10/12/11 by CEO xxx

Dear Sirs,
I believe that the above numbered PCN should not be paid on the grounds of procedural impropriety by Cardiff County Council.

1. More than 6 months have passed since the date of service of the PCN and the date of service of the NtO.

Date of PCN served: 10/12/11
Date of NtO: 11/06/12 and allowing for 1 working day to be served (as stated on the NtO), make the date 12/06/12
The NtO is clearly unlawful as its creation date much less its service date exceeds the six months limit imposed by the Traffic Management Act 2004, and certainly exceeds any boundary of reasonableness as required.

2. More than 56 days passed between the initial representations and your reply.

Date letter initial appeal letter received by Council: 12/01/12
Date of rejection letter: 26/04/12
As set out in The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions [CEPR] (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2008, Part 2, Regulation 5, you are required to reply within 56 days.

3. The regulations referred to in the NtO do not exist.

The regulations under which you are seeking to enforce the NtO are printed at the top of the first page, namely;
The Traffic Management Act 2004, s78
CEPR (Wales) General Regulations 2008
CEPR (Wales) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2008(as amended)

And later you refer to the same regulations when setting out grounds for appealing if there has been a procedural impropriety.
The CEPR (Wales) General Regulations 2008 are extant and so cannot be used to enforce the PCN which you issued. You have referred to these regulations in the NtO but they have been replaced with CEPR (Wales) (No.2) General Regulations 2008, which you have NOT referred to.

[I really like this bit. Nice one bama !] laugh.gif

As a statutory creature, the onus is on the council, and on all its employees who are public servants, at all times to act lawfully and only do things that are expressly or impliedly [implicitly ?] allowed by statute.

The council and its employees have failed in their public duty and breached the trust of the public.

I expect a written, signed and attributable apology from a duly appointed Officer of the Council within 14 days of your receipt of this document. I also expect a full and factual explanation of why the Council’s back office systems and procedures have caused an unlawful document to be sent to the public.
Yours sincerely,

matchstick


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bama
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 16:56
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QUOTE (matchstick @ Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 17:19) *
OK, here is the draft letter to reply to the NtO. Not sure about point 2 as Neil B. mentioned before that there is no time limit for informal representations, which is what the first appeal letter would have been.

Comments and amendments gratefully received.

Cardiff County Council
PO Box 47
Cardiff CF11 1QB
Thursday, 05 July 2012

Ref PCN: xxxxxxxxx
Served on : 10/12/11 by CEO xxx

Dear Sirs,
I believe that the above numbered PCN should not be paid on the grounds of procedural impropriety by Cardiff County Council.

1. More than 6 months have passed since the date of service of the PCN and the date of service of the NtO.

Date of PCN served: 10/12/11
Date of NtO: 11/06/12 and allowing for 1 working day to be served (as stated on the NtO), make the date 12/06/12
The NtO is clearly unlawful as its creation date much less its service date exceeds the six months limit imposed by the Traffic Management Act 2004 The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Penalty Charge Notices, Enforcement and Adjudication) (Wales) Regulations 2008, and certainly exceeds any boundary of reasonableness as required.

2. More than 56 days passed between the initial representations and your reply.

Date letter initial appeal letter received by Council: 12/01/12
Date of rejection letter: 26/04/12
As set out in The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions [CEPR] (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2008, Part 2, Regulation 5, you are required to reply within 56 days.

3. The regulations referred to in the NtO do not exist.

The regulations under which you are seeking to enforce the NtO are printed at the top of the first page, namely;
The Traffic Management Act 2004, s78
CEPR (Wales) General Regulations 2008
CEPR (Wales) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2008(as amended)

And later you refer to the same regulations when setting out grounds for appealing if there has been a procedural impropriety.
The CEPR (Wales) General Regulations 2008 are extant and so cannot be used to enforce the PCN which you issued. You have referred to these regulations in the NtO but they have been replaced with CEPR (Wales) (No.2) General Regulations 2008, which you have NOT referred to.

[I really like this bit. Nice one bama !] laugh.gif

As a statutory creature, the onus is on the council, and on all its employees who are public servants, at all times to act lawfully and only do things that are expressly or impliedly [implicitly ?] allowed by statute.

The council and its employees have failed in their public duty and breached the trust of the public.

I expect a written, signed and attributable apology from a duly appointed Officer of the Council within 14 days of your receipt of this document. I also expect a full and factual explanation of why the Council’s back office systems and procedures have caused an unlawful document to be sent to the public.
Yours sincerely,

matchstick



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 18:20
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Not extant, not extant (a real Eats, Shoots and Leaves if ever there was one).

You've said "are extant", you mean are not extant. I assume you've looked up "extant" and know what it means?

I'm not certain that bama wants his thoughts communicated to the council - why? (but it's his call).

It can only serve to get their backs up. Would you appreciate someone writing to you in such terms? I wouldn't, and I worked in this strange world for a long time. Stick to facts and argument, not personal opinion.


HCA
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bama
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 18:34
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It may get their backs up - but why ? and so what ?
they should be grateful to be given an honourable way out.
Barring an atrocious adjudication (which I can't see with such a clear feck up on the dates, they would be inviting further appeal and a JR) the LAs case is dead in the water. So what can they do about having their backs up ?
There is no abuse in my text whatsoever.

If they fail to acknowledge and show remorse for their unlawful act then I would carry on at them.

If we don't hold them to proper standards then who will ? And lets face it we are not talking about esoteric high standards and abstract concepts, just about the council obeying the law.

As I have often said never beg a servant, merely inform and instruct.

Of course its the OP's case and his 'stake'.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 19:42
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They're not servants. I never considered myself to be anyone's servant.

The fact that someone's employed in the public sector, funded by taxpayers, doesn't, IMO, give those not employed in that sector to take a "I look down on him.." approach. Try it on a soldier in one of the units withdrawn from Britain's ORBAT and see what you get. I've got a steel bowler in the loft if it would help.

But each to their own.


HCA
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bama
post Thu, 5 Jul 2012 - 21:17
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Sorry, but Local Authority employees are unequivocally public servants.
http://www.civilservant.org.uk/definitions.shtml

Its not looking down on them at all, its treating them appropriately and holding them to the duties and obligations that are are paid for from the public purse. Its not a master/slave thing or a superiority thing. Its a do your job and do not breach your trust with the public thing. I would argue that its a duty of the public to do so.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 05:50
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You posted "servant" and you then quote "Servant".

Yes they're Servants, but not servants.

HCA
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bama
post Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 07:15
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 06:50) *
You posted "servant" and you then quote "Servant".

Yes they're Servants, but not servants.

HCA


err, where ? you mean in the link ?
"Last, but not least, a great many public servants work for local authorities"
leaving aside the possibility/correctness of servant being used as a proper noun (which I think not) the issue is their unlawful demand for money. some would argue Fraud under S.2

I hope it is clear now that used the 's' word in its meaning of one in the service of another rather than its meaning of subordinate.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 08:04
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HCA - I like new words, but misread when I looked up extant. I thought it said NOT in existence, whereas of course it means;

Adjective: Still in existence; surviving, so you are of course correct in saying are NOT extant i.e. are Not in existence

Also you said;

You posted "servant" and you then quote "Servant".

Yes they're Servants, but not servants.


Got to say I cant see the difference apart from the capital 'S' and lowercase 's'.

I was initially of the same mind as you, regarding bama's strongly worded paragraph, but the more I reread it, the more sense it made. There are many public servants who have a real sense of civic duty and do their jobs accordingly. Equally there are some who lose sight of that fact and need reminding. The problem with indirect communication (like a letter or email) is that you don't know who is reading it, and a bad public servant would just ignore it, and a good one will be irritated by it.

However, I think the effort should still be made as its only by pointing out whats wrong that corrections can (hopefully) be made. In my case I was quite prepared to pay the inital £35 and avoid the hassle, but since they refused to be understanding about the reasons for my losing the PCN, they made a rod for their own backs.

Back to the PCN. Any thoughts on point 2 ?

(and thanks for a really interesting thread !)

This post has been edited by matchstick: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 08:05


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hcandersen
post Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 08:59
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Exactly.

Capital S connotes a defined term, so one has to go somewhere to find that definition. In this case, there's one in the doc posted: Public Servants....

It's simply a definition, it doesn't imply or confer any role or relationship between parties.

HCA
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bama
post Fri, 6 Jul 2012 - 16:33
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Its just a proper noun when capitalised (passing over the first word of a sentence thing)

matchstick, you got it re the text.
A good public servant (working in parking) who has actual goals and intent of fulfilling their duties and will know that they (the individuals concerned and the LA collectively have acted unlawfully and should in my opinion jump at the chance to purge the 'sins' of the LA. I don't see why it would get their backs up at all.
Why would they not react properly and cease their unlawful actions ?
Especially as their only defense to the unlawful demand for money (or fraud ?) is incompetence.
And that opens a whole other can of worms !
They can kill it off with a well worded apology and the promise and execution of action that stops the council issuing further unlawful demands for money. It would be wrong to say explicitly in the text 'just apologise and I will forget about it' as that would make the writer complicit. Pointing out the problems and the way for them to make good via proper reactions is the right thing to do in my opinion.

I am not taking e-bets that they will do the right thing but lets give them the chance to repair things and build bridges.
it may be that the individual concerned does care about these things but is prevented by culture and climate in their organisation. Thats yet another ball of wax.
If they chose not then its time for further consideration....


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Mon, 9 Jul 2012 - 12:21
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Thanks for all the assists. I can see that a VERY good grasp of the english language is required. I thought mine was in the upper echelons, but I've been pleased to be educated.

Apologies for bama for copying word for word his text, but it was so good, I couldn't have improved on it.

Any errors are of course mine, despite rereading and editing.

I have today sent the recorded delivery letter as posted up here, and faxed a copy as well to the council HQ.

I will of course let you know how they respond.

Fingers crossed !

= matchstick


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bama
post Mon, 9 Jul 2012 - 17:35
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I shoulda said:
No "Dear Sir" at the start.
and no "Yours" at the end


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Tue, 18 Sep 2012 - 08:08
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SUCCESS !!

Had a reply a few weeks ago allowing the appeal on the grounds of being timed out (i.e. over 6 months)

http://s1174.photobucket.com/albums/r609/m...eplyREACTED.jpg

Not surprisingly they failed to mention the fact that they have got the wrong CEPR regulations quoted on the parking ticket and went for the easy part of the appeal. Incidentally, does that mean that all parking tickets issued in Cardiff are illegally served, or simply that they would be impossible to enforce ? That would mean an awful lot of refunds being issued...

Thanks to all who posted for their help and insight, fantastic work all round.


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