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Reasonable Excuse
Slatz
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:15
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I have evicted a tenant from one of my properties for non-payment of rent.

I have a judgement, by default, against them for the monies owed (circa £8,000)

I have no forwarding address only a phone number which is answered sporadically.

He has made no arrangements to forward post.

Will I be committing an offence if I open their mail?

I believe I have "reasonable excuse" as I would like to find details of his employer or other addresses to try and recoup the debt.

The Post Services Act 2000, Section 84
Interfering with the mail: general.
(1)A person commits an offence if, without reasonable excuse, he—
(a)intentionally delays or opens a postal packet in the course of its transmission by post, or
(b)intentionally opens a mail-bag.
(2)Subsections (2) to (5) of section 83 apply to subsection (1) above as they apply to subsection (1) of that section.
(3)A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person’s detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him.
(4)Subsections (2) and (3) of section 83 (so far as they relate to the opening of postal packets) apply to subsection (3) above as they apply to subsection (1) of that section.
(5)A person who commits an offence under subsection (1) or (3) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both.Section 84
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cp8759
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:21
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Whether that would be a reasonable excuse or not would be for a court to determine, I don't know if there's any relevant case law. However for that level of debt, I wouldn't bother. Just get a tracing agent to find him and his employer (such as traceadebt.co.uk, other firms are available), then either apply for an attachment to earning order or send the High Court Enforcement Officers his way. If you pick the firm Channel 5 uses, he might even end up on "Can't Pay? They'll Take it Away".


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DancingDad
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:34
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You always have to ask whether or not you can get anything out of them before throwing good money after bad.
If employed, attachment of earnings should get something.
If unemployed, quite possibly on a hiding to nothing.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:54
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Once delivered you can open the mail.

I'd be inclined to send it back 'return to sender, not known this address' unless it looks particularly juicy.

Once used a rented accommodation where a previous tenant was a right scum bag, bailiffs and private debts all over, he made the mistake of using the address again when applying for a mortgage so we could pass on his solicitors details and intended purchase house details on to those he owed money to.


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Fredd
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:12
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:54) *
Once delivered you can open the mail.

How do you reconcile that sweeping statement with what section 84(3) of the Postal Services Act 2000 says?


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The Rookie
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:21
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QUOTE (Slatz @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:15) *
(3)A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person’s detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him.



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Fredd
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:49
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 15:21) *
QUOTE (Slatz @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:15) *
(3)A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person’s detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him.


Yes, I know what it says. But it doesn't just say "Once delivered you can open the mail", does it?


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Redivi
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 15:43
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Does the intention to recover £8000 count as "to the person's detriment" ?

I would use a tracing service such as DirectRoute that will typically charge £70 + VAT no-find-no-fee

Used to know a guy that ran one of the companies
Most people can be found in a few minutes with the right databases

Ken found one by phoning the target's mother
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666
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 15:49
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 16:43) *
Does the intention to recover £8000 count as "to the person's detriment" ?


Yes, but it's only illegal without reasonable excuse.
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 17:39
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You have to ask what likelihood you have of recovering the money.

If he has a job attachment of earnings is the way to go.

If he is unemployed or cash in hand with few belongings than even court bailiffs will struggle. You can't seize a share of nothing even if you have an address.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 22:02
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 16:43) *
Does the intention to recover £8000 count as "to the person's detriment" ?

Paying a lawful debt is not to anyone's "detriment", I would think.

--Churchmouse
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cp8759
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 00:41
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 23:02) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 16:43) *
Does the intention to recover £8000 count as "to the person's detriment" ?

Paying a lawful debt is not to anyone's "detriment", I would think.

--Churchmouse

A court might think differently. A debtor might rationally have chosen to prioritise certain debts (say council tax) and opening someone's post to enforce payment of a civil debt may well be to the debtor's detriment. Given there are lawful ways of getting the information (some tracing agents have a no-trace no fee service for under £40), I don't see why you'd risk it.


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Churchmouse
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 08:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 01:41) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 23:02) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 16:43) *
Does the intention to recover £8000 count as "to the person's detriment" ?

Paying a lawful debt is not to anyone's "detriment", I would think.

--Churchmouse

A court might think differently. A debtor might rationally have chosen to prioritise certain debts (say council tax) and opening someone's post to enforce payment of a civil debt may well be to the debtor's detriment. Given there are lawful ways of getting the information (some tracing agents have a no-trace no fee service for under £40), I don't see why you'd risk it.

A court might. But not only must it find that paying a lawful debt is to the debtor's detriment (which I think is questionable), the person opening the mail must also have had no "reasonable excuse" for doing so. More words ripe for judicial interpretation, but seeking to recover a lawful debt does not sound "unreasonable" to me.

--Churchmouse
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cp8759
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 11:36
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 09:31) *
A court might. But not only must it find that paying a lawful debt is to the debtor's detriment (which I think is questionable), the person opening the mail must also have had no "reasonable excuse" for doing so. More words ripe for judicial interpretation, but seeking to recover a lawful debt does not sound "unreasonable" to me.

--Churchmouse

I guess some people are more willing to risk their good character than others.


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StuartBu
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 15:15
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:21) *
his way. If you pick the firm Channel 5 uses, he might even end up on "Can't Pay? They'll Take it Away".


IRO that programme it always amazes me in the cases where rent is involved why landlords allow arrears to build up to the levels they do.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 15:17
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 16:15) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:21) *
his way. If you pick the firm Channel 5 uses, he might even end up on "Can't Pay? They'll Take it Away".


IRO that programme it always amazes me in the cases where rent is involved why landlords allow arrears to build up to the levels they do.

High rents x the time it takes to get a possession order.


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cp8759
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 15:50
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 16:15) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:21) *
his way. If you pick the firm Channel 5 uses, he might even end up on "Can't Pay? They'll Take it Away".


IRO that programme it always amazes me in the cases where rent is involved why landlords allow arrears to build up to the levels they do.

What amazes me a lot more is this: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/feb/...ages-high-court

Not because of the outcome, but because I had assumed after filming someone from the production crew would says "sign this bit of paper and I'll give you £500 cash", given the circumstances these people find themselves in, it's hard to imagine anyone turning them down.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 15:50


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Slatz
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 17:07
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 16:17) *
High rents x the time it takes to get a possession order.


Exactly the position I found myself in.
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 10:08
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 12:36) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 09:31) *
A court might. But not only must it find that paying a lawful debt is to the debtor's detriment (which I think is questionable), the person opening the mail must also have had no "reasonable excuse" for doing so. More words ripe for judicial interpretation, but seeking to recover a lawful debt does not sound "unreasonable" to me.

--Churchmouse

I guess some people are more willing to risk their good character than others.

Good character for not paying debts?

--Churchmouse
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cp8759
post Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 13:04
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 11:08) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 12:36) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 09:31) *
A court might. But not only must it find that paying a lawful debt is to the debtor's detriment (which I think is questionable), the person opening the mail must also have had no "reasonable excuse" for doing so. More words ripe for judicial interpretation, but seeking to recover a lawful debt does not sound "unreasonable" to me.

--Churchmouse

I guess some people are more willing to risk their good character than others.

Good character for not paying debts?

--Churchmouse

No I meant good character as in avoiding the risk of a conviction under the Postal Services Act 2000


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