[NIP Wizard] Can I admit guilt to a lower speed? |
[NIP Wizard] Can I admit guilt to a lower speed? |
Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:39
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Date of the offence: - September 2018 Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A631 East Bawtry Road near Bent Lathes Avenue Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - How many current points do you have? - 0 Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I traveled home from work as normal by motorbike in good weather on dry roads. I regularly see mobile speed traps on this road as I use it most days therefore I don't exceed 50mph in the 40mph zone, I'll admit to those speeds but no the claimed 60mph. I didn't see the officer but looking at the location they'll have hid behind a large hedge & got me as I traveled away from them. NIP Wizard Responses These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation: Have you received a NIP? - Yes Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes Were you driving? - Yes Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England NIP Wizard Recommendation Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:33:48 +0000 Hi all, As above really, I accept I might have been speeding but not to the extend claimed. I see way too many speed traps on that road to risk doing 50% over the limit. I recall reading about 'Newton hearings' in the past, are they still a thing I can try for? The location of the trap in Rotherham (heading approx. NE btw) is a few hundred yards after a roundabout so I might well have passed a slow car indeed they often swap lanes incorrectly on the exit/actual roundabout there & it happens so regularly I just make sure I'm not too near to them when they next attempt to have an accident. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:39
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:41
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#2
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,220 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
In response to your question (cunningly hidden in the thread title for those not paying attention) - "Can I admit guilt to a lower speed?"
Technically, yes but not at this stage. If you allow the speeding allegation to go to court, you can enter a 'Newton Plea', which admits the offence (exceeding the speed limit), but disputes the alleged material facts. However, for 60mph in a 40mph limit, you would receive the same offer of a fixed penalty as you would for 50mph in a 40mph limit (ignoring the fact that the police would have invited you to bribe them to drop it if the allegation was 50mph). The penalty for 50mph in a 40mph limit in court would almost certainly be greater than the fixed penalty. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:48
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,586 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Would a Newton Plea apply to an 'exact' speed measurement?
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:50
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
Thank you, a fixed penalty I'd accept as I believe my speed was probably about right for one of those.
My concern is when I've looked at guidelines on other sites (such as the RAC) they suggest over 57mph is too high for that in a 40zone. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:55
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,586 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Fixed penalty upto 65mph. Course up to 53mph. (Inclusive)
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:59
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
Fixed penalty upto 65mph. Course up to 53mph. (Inclusive) Thanks. Where is that from? as I've not seen the same 'limits' elsewhere online. I'm not doubting you, I know how useful this forum is & has been to me in the past. The guide I've been finding in other places suggests COFP is only upto 57mph. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:03
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#7
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,220 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
The guide I've been finding in other places suggests COFP is only upto 57mph. What places would that be? -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:07
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
The guide I've been finding in other places suggests COFP is only upto 57mph. What places would that be? This solicitors for starters https://vhsfletchers.co.uk/new-speeding-penalty-guidelines/ If you google 'what is the penalty for 60 in a 40' you get a link to the RAC showing the same (but if you follow the link their site is broke & you never get to the table). |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:20
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
This solicitors for starters https://vhsfletchers.co.uk/new-speeding-penalty-guidelines/ I see no mention of CoFPs. -------------------- |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:51
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
You're right now I've gone back & reread it after your comment.
I guess I wasn't reading the details properly earlier due to being annoyed. Just to delay things as long as possible so I get the 0.000001p interest on the £100... I assume the 28 days to respond starts on the date of the S172 notice & it has to be with them by the 28th day? |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:59
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Just to delay things as long as possible so I get the 0.000001p interest on the £100... I get over 1p a day on £100, you need a new bank. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 20:15
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 23:02
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,356 Joined: 30 Jun 2008 From: Landan Member No.: 20,731 |
Thank you, a fixed penalty I'd accept as I believe my speed was probably about right for one of those. You'd also have to have a good reason for your belief. "I never ride 60 in a 40" is not a very convincing argument, so if that was the entirety of your evidence I'd expect the court to thank you for your guilty plea and sentence accordingly. --Churchmouse |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:15
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 22 Jun 2010 Member No.: 38,459 |
NIP Details and Circumstances What is the name of the Constabulary? - Date of the offence: - September 2018 Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A631 East Bawtry Road near Bent Lathes Avenue Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - How many current points do you have? - 0 Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I traveled home from work as normal by motorbike in good weather on dry roads. I regularly see mobile speed traps on this road as I use it most days therefore I don't exceed 50mph in the 40mph zone, I'll admit to those speeds but no the claimed 60mph. I didn't see the officer but looking at the location they'll have hid behind a large hedge & got me as I traveled away from them. NIP Wizard Responses These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation: Have you received a NIP? - Yes Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes Were you driving? - Yes Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England NIP Wizard Recommendation Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:33:48 +0000 Hi all, As above really, I accept I might have been speeding but not to the extend claimed. I see way too many speed traps on that road to risk doing 50% over the limit. I recall reading about 'Newton hearings' in the past, are they still a thing I can try for? The location of the trap in Rotherham (heading approx. NE btw) is a few hundred yards after a roundabout so I might well have passed a slow car indeed they often swap lanes incorrectly on the exit/actual roundabout there & it happens so regularly I just make sure I'm not too near to them when they next attempt to have an accident. Are you sure you had just come off the roundabout? I know this area well and you would be hard pressed to get to 60mph off Worrygoose roundabout. I'd be more inclined to believe that sort of speed if they'd caught you coming round the corner from Brecks, towards Whiston. |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 15:24
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,781 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
What more do you need to know?
As explained in post #2, you do not have the opportunity to challenge the speed alleged at this stage. As well as that, post #5 explained that fixed penalties are offered for speeds up to 65mph in a 40mph limit. So whether you were travelling at 60mph as alleged or at your estimate of 50mph makes no difference. But to take advantage of the fixed penalty (£100 and three points) you must accept the allegation as it stands. Newton hearings are held when a matter goes to court and the sentence would be materially different depending on which version is accepted. Your choices are quite clear. Provided you respond to the request for driver's details in time you will almost certainly be offered a fixed penalty. You can accept that by sending £100 and your licence as instructed. Alternatively you can turn that down and opt for the matter to be dealt with in court. There you can plead guilty and request your Newton Hearing on the basis that you believe you were travelling at only 50mph. If the court rejects your argument you will pay a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for your guilty plea), a surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum £30), £85 costs and you will receive a minimum of four points. In the unlikely event your argument is successful your fine will be only half a week's net income, the surcharge and costs will remain the same and you will get three points. So, on the basis you earn £400 per week, these are the most likely outcomes: Accept the fixed penalty: £100 and 3 points Successfully argue you were travelling at only 50 mph: £248 (£133 +£30 + £85) and 3 points Unsuccessfully argue you were travelling at only 50mph: £382 (£267 + £30 + £85) and Minimum 4 points. So, why would you want to complicate matters and end up paying two and a half times more than you need to (and in all probability almost four times as much)? This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:02 |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 15:32
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 499 Joined: 14 Nov 2011 Member No.: 51,087 |
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A631 East Bawtry Road near Bent Lathes Avenue Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I traveled home from work as normal by motorbike in good weather on dry roads. I regularly see mobile speed traps on this road as I use it most days therefore I don't exceed 50mph in the 40mph zone, I'll admit to those speeds but no the claimed 60mph. I didn't see the officer but looking at the location they'll have hid behind a large hedge & got me as I traveled away from them. Hi all, As above really, I accept I might have been speeding but not to the extend claimed. I see way too many speed traps on that road to risk doing 50% over the limit. I recall reading about 'Newton hearings' in the past, are they still a thing I can try for? The location of the trap in Rotherham (heading approx. NE btw) is a few hundred yards after a roundabout so I might well have passed a slow car indeed they often swap lanes incorrectly on the exit/actual roundabout there & it happens so regularly I just make sure I'm not too near to them when they next attempt to have an accident. Are you sure you had just come off the roundabout? I know this area well and you would be hard pressed to get to 60mph off Worrygoose roundabout. No, he said he was a few hundred yards after the roundabout and he was on a motorbike. I don't think he would be hard pressed to hit 60mph on a dual carriageway over that distance. |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:15
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Member No.: 29,571 |
Are you sure you had just come off the roundabout? I know this area well and you would be hard pressed to get to 60mph off Worrygoose roundabout. I'd be more inclined to believe that sort of speed if they'd caught you coming round the corner from Brecks, towards Whiston. Completely sure, given the time of the ticket I'd just left work so would have crossed the roundabout before being caught. Thanks all for your help with this. I'd misread guidelines I found online & thought it was going to be a court appearance. I'll leave it for as much of the 28 day period as possible & then send the form back & accept a CoFP as seems to be expected for the claimed speed. |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:27
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#18
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,220 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
I assume the 28 days to respond starts on the date of the S172 notice & it has to be with them by the 28th day? Don't assume - it does not appear to be something that you are particularly adept at. The 28 days begins with the date of service (that day is day 1). Service is assumed to have been performed 2 working days after posting for first class post (unless proven otherwise). The required information must be served on them (delivered) by day 28. Whilst a slightly late response is unlikely to result in prosecution for failing to provide the information, sticking 2 fingers up at them by leaving it as late as possible will either have absolutely no effect whatsoever, or end up causing you more grief. To paraphrase Sun Tsu - pick your battles. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 20:37
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 22 Jun 2010 Member No.: 38,459 |
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A631 East Bawtry Road near Bent Lathes Avenue Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I traveled home from work as normal by motorbike in good weather on dry roads. I regularly see mobile speed traps on this road as I use it most days therefore I don't exceed 50mph in the 40mph zone, I'll admit to those speeds but no the claimed 60mph. I didn't see the officer but looking at the location they'll have hid behind a large hedge & got me as I traveled away from them. Hi all, As above really, I accept I might have been speeding but not to the extend claimed. I see way too many speed traps on that road to risk doing 50% over the limit. I recall reading about 'Newton hearings' in the past, are they still a thing I can try for? The location of the trap in Rotherham (heading approx. NE btw) is a few hundred yards after a roundabout so I might well have passed a slow car indeed they often swap lanes incorrectly on the exit/actual roundabout there & it happens so regularly I just make sure I'm not too near to them when they next attempt to have an accident. Are you sure you had just come off the roundabout? I know this area well and you would be hard pressed to get to 60mph off Worrygoose roundabout. No, he said he was a few hundred yards after the roundabout and he was on a motorbike. I don't think he would be hard pressed to hit 60mph on a dual carriageway over that distance. The only problem being Bent Lathes is a few hundred yards from the roundabout, at the most! |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 21:47
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,781 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
Is there any doubt that the where the OP was driving was subject to a 40mph limit?
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