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DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 11:12


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Third line, delete the word council, end of the day it doesn't matter who requires payment, there should be clear signs.

Final paragraph re FOI request, delete.
Replace with something like..." This was an honest error, brought about by lack of signage, even if you consider that the signage is clear, please exercise your discretion to cancel.


The FOI request make anyway but without referencing the PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472718 · Replies: 19 · Views: 317

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 10:10


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It's certainly grounds for a challenge.
Doubt council will accept.
Whether or not an adjudicator would is IMO 50/50

The test on clarity is whether or not the average motorist would misunderstand the sign.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472700 · Replies: 9 · Views: 122

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 00:04


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They cite prohibited U turn but are not charging anything for it, I suspect that honour would be reserved for the police as a road traffic contravention.
TBH, it probably isn't what you want to hear but pay and lesson learnt.
Whether they would sent it to magistrates is a question we cannot answer.
But would cost them nothing to do so, they would claim costs on conviction.

The only thing that bothers me is the requirement to name the driver with the inherent that if you don't, it will be taken as you.
No issue with regard to the toll, that will have been paid but if the Old Bill subsequently come after you for the U turn ???
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472666 · Replies: 10 · Views: 135

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 23:48


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Put a challenge in during the discount period, if nothing else ask for discretion to be used to cancel.
But don't lose the discount.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472661 · Replies: 3 · Views: 48

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 23:19


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If there is a No Motor Vehicles sign at the entrance there is also possible a yellow No Waiting plate, tis a common arrangement.
And may be where the time plate for the single yellows is, treating the area as a zone.

Pictures would help us help you, the PCN may give rise to other matters.
Otherwise we are guessing and all I can answer to your specific question is maybe.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472660 · Replies: 7 · Views: 82

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 23:14


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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 17:14) *
Draft a challenge and post here.

As DD says the terms board the CEO included in pics seems to be across the road in another car park. ...


No, the machine and its tariff board were in what to all intents was another car park (actually same one but across the road)
Streetview seems to show similar tariff boards by the two machines within the car park OP was in.
The T&C board seems to be the big green board opposite Morrison's entrance.
But we cannot see the terms on it and TBH, it could be an advertising hoarding.


If OP can return to the car park, you need pictures from where you parked the car, covering 180 degree view.
This will give an adjudicator opportunity to see the view from a driver's perspective.
Also need a clean photo of the T&C board...or at least what is on the front of that green sign.
Within those photos, the machine across the street that the CEO pictured will likely be the only clearly visible machine...… No way in the world would I cross a road to what looks like another car park to buy a ticket from that machine.


There is no legislation that specifically says what signs can be used or should be used in a car park.
But this does not remove the normal duty on a council to place signage that is adequate to inform drivers that restrictions exist.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472656 · Replies: 19 · Views: 317

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:47


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QUOTE (w90210 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 17:43) *
Hi, thanks for the replies. Have now spoken to driver and drop off was made to Save the Children and pick up of medicines from Boots the Chemist, in all 10 minutes at most. Will appeal on this point and the 0845 as suggested.


We need more.
Drop off at charity shop is fine, assuming a large enough (or bulky) item.
Pick up at Boots may well come into shopping.


Time allowed for loading is as long as needed, but not one second more.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472465 · Replies: 13 · Views: 167

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:56


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QUOTE (desman @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 23:12) *
Yes - that's correct. The sign was illustrating the suspended area as from house number 23 to the left end of the bay I think, but it was quite distance from that space so it wasn't very clear.
…...

You need to be clear on what argument you are using.
That the wording on the sign was not very clear.... in which case how did you interpret it ?
Or that the sign being positioned on the normal and only restriction pole within the bay didn't make it clear that there was a suspension....and why not ?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472446 · Replies: 9 · Views: 122

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:46


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This seems like a Private Parking Ticket
I've asked mods to move to correct forum.
  Forum: Private Parking Tickets & Clamping · Post Preview: #1472442 · Replies: 10 · Views: 135

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 18:10


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QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 16:22) *
Hi guys hope your all well another pun topic laugh.gif laugh.gif
yellow box junctions can you still get a fine if there is no CCTV. and also outside London how do they police this.

Police enforcement generally outside of London...FPN job from copper on the ground.
IIRC Cardiff is also enforcing under Welsh Decrim with CCTV
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1472350 · Replies: 1 · Views: 135

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 16:21


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I've seen inadequate signage won with better signs then seem to be here.
Where are the "Have you Paid and Displayed" signs?
The Entrance sign saying Pay and Display?
Not to mention that the three P&D machines seem to be tucked away in corners.
Stealth parking enforcement that would make many private parking car parks with hidden signage look good.
I suspect the T&C board is the green backed one just on the right opposite Morrison's entrance.
BTW, the P&D machine that the CEO photographed is the one in the other part of the car park, across the road.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1472328 · Replies: 19 · Views: 317

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 13:54


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I seem to remember an old saying that prison is full of innocent people.

She has had two (three if you include an appeal) to put her side forward.

Hopefully she is practicing for her new career.... "Do you want fries with that?"
  Forum: News / Press Articles · Post Preview: #1472275 · Replies: 263 · Views: 14,616

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:56


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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:31) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:40) *
I find it difficult to believe that a permit bay has been put in with no warnings ?

From the wording it appears they went on honeymoon BEFORE the TMO was made...…...



TMOs don't happen overnight.
Can take months for one to be raised.
Though it could be a case that the TMO had been made but only became operational after they went?


I'm wondering on the bay markings as well?
In London there is unlikely to be a clear spot of unregulated parking that an authority could rely on to go and paint lines.
So if that was the case, I would have expected the area to be suspended and the car to be removed against that suspension before any lines were painted.
Or if bays were already there and it was simply a post sign change, what were the restrictions before ?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1472198 · Replies: 6 · Views: 195

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:48


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IMO, finding out exactly what they are relying on is critical.
No point in raising an appeal on S97 "adequate" and whether their decision is reasonable when there may be a regulation tucked away that says "though shalt exchange or else"

And keep in mind that often decision makers in authorities base the decision on policy not law (even though policy should be based on law)
Getting a copy of that written policy could pay dividends (Freedom of Information request)
If there is no written policy then they are on the back foot on showing reasonable decision.
If there is a written policy it may well give ideas on why they are refusing and how to overcome.

I'd also be wary of the solicitor's comment.
For all I know or you, there may have been full page headlines in all the national papers, letters to all affected licence holders and/'or companies who would be employing drivers.
Not to say it may not be valid but it is not a silver bullet.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1472195 · Replies: 9 · Views: 473

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:47


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 23:10) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:06) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28) *
If there’s massive scope for confusion then has adequate guidance been given? (Is adequate guidance the correct test?)

Section 85(4) RTRA says "...a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above...", subsection 1 says "For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles..." so they way I read it, that is the correct test, and if there is massive scope for confusion, only the national speed limit can be enforced.

I agree. My only doubt was that the adequate guidance test that I know and love is founded in the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and I’ve not looked at whether it applies elsewhere.



Within LATOR S18 there is caveat "(3) This regulation is without prejudice to section 85 of the 1984 Act(1) (traffic signs for indicating speed limits). "
Which to me says that the 1984 act has priority on adequate guidance.


  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1472178 · Replies: 11 · Views: 316

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:40


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Could even have found on no contravention as when they parked there was no restriction.

These sort of cases are clear examples of councils forgetting that enforcement should have an aim of traffic management not simply because they can enforce.
Nothing in the law says they must.
There is no benefit towards traffic management here.

I do wonder on the other side of the story though.
I find it difficult to believe that a permit bay has been put in with no warnings ?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1472172 · Replies: 6 · Views: 195

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:32


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If it is S97 there is a caveat on the surrender "or provides the Secretary of State with an explanation for not surrendering them which the Secretary of State considers adequate"
This puts the decision firmly in the hands of the DVLA (acting for the SOS) but with an arguable term "adequate"

I assume at the moment you have simply said that you cannot return the old licence as it has been lost in the course of travels, house moves etc over the years.
Personally I would find that adequate considering that DVLA have systems in place to deal with lost licences and the like but if it comes to an appeal on it, you would need to show that their decision was unreasonable, one that no reasonable authority could be expected to make.

I wonder if the people who have been looking at it and your arguments have been towards they must issue a new one against you must surrender the old and the adequate explanation part has been lost or ignored.
By them as much as you.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1472170 · Replies: 9 · Views: 473

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:34


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Include that last line.
Finalise with something like "Many thanks in anticipation"
Does no harm to be polite and an old sales trick is to be positive in the hope that they will.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471972 · Replies: 14 · Views: 202

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:31


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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 14:41) *
Well CEO got the yellow line - well done at 3 am. But no sign. …….


Must need specsavers, canna even see the line.
As long as the sign a few yards up the road that we can see on streetview is there, with same times (I assume that this is the one in OP's photos) and the single yellow is continuous to infront of the shop, nay worries whatsoever.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471969 · Replies: 14 · Views: 183

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:27


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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 14:50) *
I don’t know how these charge points work but could you have still plugged in even with the machine out of order?


Hmmmm
If I had a car with 5-10 grands worth of battery in it not to mention the fancy electronics that control it all, the last thing I would do is plug it into a defective charger.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471967 · Replies: 11 · Views: 152

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:04


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QUOTE (naturevalley @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:00) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 11:47) *
that's ridiculous. which ones are the council pics? Just the first three? is that all of them?


yep the first 3

And only those 3 ???

We have seen some creative photo framing from CEOs but this one has to be a lead contender if they totally fail to show the fence.
Include your photos within any challenge and that historically streetview shows that the fence was erected pre 2014 and there have been no changes to suggest that vehicle access has been re-instated.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471880 · Replies: 8 · Views: 138

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:01


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Surprised that they did not do this over the phone, as Sheila (BailiffsAdvice) said, they are one of the few authorities that act reasonably and will do so on a phone call.
Doesn't matter, good result.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471878 · Replies: 14 · Views: 191

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 11:55


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I assume that your vehicle is an battery powered one that is capable of being charged at that point ?
Just asking smile.gif
But worth including in a challenge just in case just in case they cannot recognise a Nissan Leaf (or whatever).
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471872 · Replies: 11 · Views: 152

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 11:43


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Hmmm
It is a DK which was put in for the purpose of vehicle access.
You have to go back to 2008 to see this on GSV.
By 2014 (next time google car passed by) there was a new fence.
This prevented any vehicle access so to me, at the point that the fence was erected, the DK no longer came into the restrictions as prescribed within TMA 2004 S86
That situation has existed for at least 4 years and to me will continue that way until and unless the new people stick in a vehicle gate, they are stuck with it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471868 · Replies: 8 · Views: 138

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 11:26


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Doesn't seem to be any off street order within the TRO library that includes EV charging points.

I would challenge based on parking with every intention of charging the vehicle.
Found the charging unit out of order so could not charge.
If there is any failure of the relevant parking place order this was totally out of your control.
That it would seem unreasonable to not only serve a PCN within these circumstances but to continue enforcement.
Even if they believe that a contravention occurred would they use their discretion to cancel.
Should they choose not to, please include relevant information that they will rely upon such as machine records, enforcement policy in the event of a breakdown in car park equipment and the relevant traffic order that shows the contravention cited.


Include your parking P&D ticket and your photos of the broken machine and the status screenshot.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1471863 · Replies: 11 · Views: 152

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