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Middle lane hogging - careless?
southpaw82
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 12:34
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What do we think?

Some observations:

For it to be careless, it has to fall below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver.

For it to be without reasonable consideration, some other person actually has to be inconvenienced.


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post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 12:34
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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 12:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 12:09) *
Here's an example. In past few years I've had to return late at night down M1 and at this very long right hand bend just south of Sheffield I've tended to drive round the inside at 2-3am as there was no traffic. Maybe it's psychological but it just feels like you are making more progress and optimising use of the empty road.

But if you have a reason for doing so it arguably isn't careless.


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mike5100
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 14:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 12:36) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 12:09) *
Here's an example. In past few years I've had to return late at night down M1 and at this very long right hand bend just south of Sheffield I've tended to drive round the inside at 2-3am as there was no traffic. Maybe it's psychological but it just feels like you are making more progress and optimising use of the empty road.

But if you have a reason for doing so it arguably isn't careless.

My thinking too. And presumably the point of the original post. Even if that reason is not acceptable to the majority of drivers you have considered what and why you are doing so it can hardly be described as careless. Driving my motorbike up the M6 the other day in moderate traffic - plenty of gaps, no impatient queues forming in any lane, I realised that my forward vision was much better in the middle lane. The left lane had lorries and vans with no 'see through'. It wasn't raining but of course when the lorries and vans are kicking up a load of spray matters are made worse in lane 1.
Mike
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 14:30
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 14:02) *
......Even if that reason is not acceptable to the majority of drivers you have considered what and why you are doing so it can hardly be described as careless. ……..

Not sure if considering what and why comes into it unless the what and why amount to more then "I felt like it"
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mike5100
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:48
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 14:30) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 14:02) *
......Even if that reason is not acceptable to the majority of drivers you have considered what and why you are doing so it can hardly be described as careless. ……..

Not sure if considering what and why comes into it unless the what and why amount to more then "I felt like it"

That's a reasonable point. The Oxford dictionary states "not giving enough attention and thought to what you are doing, so that you make mistakes". Me riding my bike in the middle lane on the M6 certainly had enough attention and thought applied to it, but if I was pulled for it then by definition I would have made a mistake. Is there a definition of 'careless' as used in the law other than the observation in Southpaw's opening post about it being other than what a careful and considerate (edit:competent) driver would do?
Mike

This post has been edited by mike5100: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:49
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southpaw82
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:52
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:48) *
Is there a definition of 'careless' as used in the law other than the observation in Southpaw's opening post about it being other than what a careful and considerate (edit:competent) driver would do?

No.


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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:29
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:48) *
... Me riding my bike in the middle lane on the M6 certainly had enough attention and thought applied to it, but if I was pulled for it then by definition I would have made a mistake. ……...

Not necessarily in that case. It was to reduce the effect of spray and muck thrown up by lorries.
Potentially a valid reason, far less so in a car which has wash/wipe but important to a biker.

I made the comment earlier that ironically, it is only when the motorway is clear that the old bill have a chance of making CC stick.
Then there is no excuse for failing to adhere to the HC.
Which to me embodies not only legislated rules of the road but good practice.
If you are not following good practice, how can you be driving at the standard of a reasonable and competent driver?

Once there is traffic, decision making comes into it and that can become very subjective.
Someone overtaking a lorry at 2mph differential is overtaking, taking their bl00dy time over it and possibly causing a queue but cannot be accused of not following the keep to the left rule. But why oh why don't they speed up a little and make the overtake time shorter?

No one is going to pop in and out of 50ft gaps between lorries.
But when should someone use a gap and let others past, 100ft gap, 100yd gap?
I tend to pull out to overtake early, cannot stand those who pull right up to the tail and then pull out.
But that means my judgement is going to be different to someone who does leave the lane change to the last minute.
Plus differential speeds, visibility, traffic density, all come into play.


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mickR
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 19:54
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Whatever happened to, accelerate match the speed of traffic when overtaking?

Anyway the windscreen chip acting as a machine gun site gets a bashing lately, or... is that just me? rolleyes.gif
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mike5100
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 20:06
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:29) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:48) *
... Me riding my bike in the middle lane on the M6 certainly had enough attention and thought applied to it, but if I was pulled for it then by definition I would have made a mistake. ……...

Not necessarily in that case. It was to reduce the effect of spray and muck thrown up by lorries.
Potentially a valid reason, far less so in a car which has wash/wipe but important to a biker.

I made the comment earlier that ironically, it is only when the motorway is clear that the old bill have a chance of making CC stick.
Then there is no excuse for failing to adhere to the HC.
Which to me embodies not only legislated rules of the road but good practice.
If you are not following good practice, how can you be driving at the standard of a reasonable and competent driver?

Once there is traffic, decision making comes into it and that can become very subjective.
Someone overtaking a lorry at 2mph differential is overtaking, taking their bl00dy time over it and possibly causing a queue but cannot be accused of not following the keep to the left rule. But why oh why don't they speed up a little and make the overtake time shorter?

No one is going to pop in and out of 50ft gaps between lorries.
But when should someone use a gap and let others past, 100ft gap, 100yd gap?
I tend to pull out to overtake early, cannot stand those who pull right up to the tail and then pull out.
But that means my judgement is going to be different to someone who does leave the lane change to the last minute.
Plus differential speeds, visibility, traffic density, all come into play.

+1 DD, I think we are in accord on this subject - which didn't seem so, early on in this thread.
Mind you I hope you can see the irony of what you are advocating above: make sure you follow the rule but only when it's pointless to do so (no traffic).
People on the motorcycling forum attempted to define the gap when you should pull into the left rather than stay out to overtake more than one vehicle - they suggested the 2 second rule should be used. But I'm not sure that works in practice.
Mike
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:46
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 20:06) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:29) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 15:48) *
... Me riding my bike in the middle lane on the M6 certainly had enough attention and thought applied to it, but if I was pulled for it then by definition I would have made a mistake. ……...

Not necessarily in that case. It was to reduce the effect of spray and muck thrown up by lorries.
Potentially a valid reason, far less so in a car which has wash/wipe but important to a biker.

I made the comment earlier that ironically, it is only when the motorway is clear that the old bill have a chance of making CC stick.
Then there is no excuse for failing to adhere to the HC.
Which to me embodies not only legislated rules of the road but good practice.
If you are not following good practice, how can you be driving at the standard of a reasonable and competent driver?

Once there is traffic, decision making comes into it and that can become very subjective.
Someone overtaking a lorry at 2mph differential is overtaking, taking their bl00dy time over it and possibly causing a queue but cannot be accused of not following the keep to the left rule. But why oh why don't they speed up a little and make the overtake time shorter?

No one is going to pop in and out of 50ft gaps between lorries.
But when should someone use a gap and let others past, 100ft gap, 100yd gap?
I tend to pull out to overtake early, cannot stand those who pull right up to the tail and then pull out.
But that means my judgement is going to be different to someone who does leave the lane change to the last minute.
Plus differential speeds, visibility, traffic density, all come into play.

+1 DD, I think we are in accord on this subject - which didn't seem so, early on in this thread.
Mind you I hope you can see the irony of what you are advocating above: make sure you follow the rule but only when it's pointless to do so (no traffic).
People on the motorcycling forum attempted to define the gap when you should pull into the left rather than stay out to overtake more than one vehicle - they suggested the 2 second rule should be used. But I'm not sure that works in practice.
Mike


It can't be a hard fast rule but I usually say if I am not going to overtake in 10 seconds, pull back in. But that's quite a distance at 70 (about 330 metres)


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Fredd
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 22:47
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:46) *
It can't be a hard fast rule but I usually say if I am not going to overtake in 10 seconds, pull back in.


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 12 Nov 2019 - 18:16) *
Rules matter. People make mistakes, fair enough but when you see a motorcyclist without a head because they straightened out a curve into the path of a truck carrying plate steel you think if rules are rigorously enforced and people know they will be things like that would not happen.

Driving is one of the most dangerous thing people do, they should know the rules and stick to them


Where's that head-spinning emoji when you need it?


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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 22:57
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:46) *
It can't be a hard fast rule but I usually say if I am not going to overtake in 10 seconds, pull back in.


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 12 Nov 2019 - 18:16) *
Rules matter. People make mistakes, fair enough but when you see a motorcyclist without a head because they straightened out a curve into the path of a truck carrying plate steel you think if rules are rigorously enforced and people know they will be things like that would not happen.

Driving is one of the most dangerous thing people do, they should know the rules and stick to them


Where's that head-spinning emoji when you need it?


It can't be a hard fast rule so if someone wanted or was likely to want to overtake me in that time I would pull in sooner. Seems simple to me


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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 00:17
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 20:06) *
….....
+1 DD, I think we are in accord on this subject - which didn't seem so, early on in this thread.
Mind you I hope you can see the irony of what you are advocating above: make sure you follow the rule but only when it's pointless to do so (no traffic).
People on the motorcycling forum attempted to define the gap when you should pull into the left rather than stay out to overtake more than one vehicle - they suggested the 2 second rule should be used. But I'm not sure that works in practice.
Mike


I can see the irony but that does not change my mind on the guy who happily travels in the middle lane for three miles being guilty as hell of being below an acceptable standard.
Especially if my suspicion is correct that he didn't have a clue what he was doing wrong.

I just try to drive sensibly and follow the rules.
That necessitates value judgements, when to pull over, when to pull out, what sort of speed is safe, is that actually legal or will I get away with it, stopping distance, do I brake check the idiot in my boot or slow down or get out of his way.... etc etc etc.

I certainly do not advocate MUST be in the left lane no matter what.
I do advocate being in there when it is sensible to.
I don't rigidly follow lane discipline on things like roundabouts when they are empty but I'm not going to travel for the next two miles in the right hand lane cos I want to turn right ahead.

And I fully admit getting frustrated by divvies who cannot or do not follow sensible lane discipline.

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mickR
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 09:53
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Well some interesting and emotive arguments here.
In the OP instance despite my loathing of The MLOC im struggling to find this case careless. Had the road been busy i would see it differently. Had the Bib come up behind the guy and he failed to move to the left then Bang to rights.
Moreover in light of the Kent police twitter pole it smacks sharply of point scoring with the public. If fear if this ends in court it might backfire badly on them.

This post has been edited by mickR: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 09:55
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Charlie1010
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 10:20
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Attitude issue.
Headline could have read like this if the driver said sorry officer.

‘Apologetic driver saves being fined £100 after hogging middle lane of M20 for three miles after telling police he is sorry but thought he was doing nothing wrong because the road was EMPTY’
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mickR
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 10:31
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Or it might read...
Kent police court fail leaves door open for hoards of middle lane wan hoggers to make motorway drivers lives a misery.
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mike5100
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:43
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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 09:53) *
Well some interesting and emotive arguments here.
In the OP instance despite my loathing of The MLOC im struggling to find this case careless. Had the road been busy i would see it differently. Had the Bib come up behind the guy and he failed to move to the left then Bang to rights.
Moreover in light of the Kent police twitter pole it smacks sharply of point scoring with the public. If fear if this ends in court it might backfire badly on them.

That last point occurred to me too. I thought in this country there were rules to guarantee someone would get a fair hearing. Surely the police tweeting their side of the story and generating this much venom against the guy would preclude that.
Mike
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 13:50
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:43) *
……..
That last point occurred to me too. I thought in this country there were rules to guarantee someone would get a fair hearing. Surely the police tweeting their side of the story and generating this much venom against the guy would preclude that.
Mike

Why would he not get a fair hearing should he decide to ignore the FPN and gets to court?
Magistrates, no jury, unbiased.
Although the latter may depend on whether the Mags are fed up with being stuck behind MLOC or a paid up member.

But if you are worried about the publicity, levy the same against virtually any crime related story on the news, in the papers, even on TwitFace.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 14:43
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 13:50) *
Magistrates, no jury, unbiased.

laugh.gif

There is/was a person purporting to be a magistrate who had a blog. His/her usual description of drivers accused of traffic offences was “Mr Toad”. I’m sure drivers appearing in that court felt like they had an unbiased bench rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 14:44


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andy_foster
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 16:28
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 14:43) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 13:50) *
Magistrates, no jury, unbiased.

laugh.gif

There is/was a person purporting to be a magistrate who had a blog. His/her usual description of drivers accused of traffic offences was “Mr Toad”. I’m sure drivers appearing in that court felt like they had an unbiased bench rolleyes.gif


Based on my fairly recent experience of court cases, which constitutes a statistically insignificant sample size, lay magistrates seem to be the only court 'staff' who believe that the court's job is to impartially apply the law to the facts as found.


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