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PCN - Congestion Charging
Bstearman
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:26
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Hi all,

I’d really appreciate some guidance with the following matter.

On the 9th of October last year, I went into a congestion zone and forgot to pay the fine – purely because I was mistaken about how the system works. During the time, I had moved to a new house and sent the V5C to the DLVA to get the address changed. However, they only updated their records on the 25th of October 2018. This PCN was issued on the 13th which meant that the notice was sent to the previous address.

My previous landlord was living abroad for the remainder of the year and having returned, passed on the letters that failed to be redirected.
I attempted to contact TFL and inform them of the situation (letter is attached). I attached a V5C as evidence as it clearly states when the records were updated by the DLVA. In all honesty, it feels as if they haven’t bothered to consider the situation and sent the standard response.

I received 3 notices from them, and the last two were sent to the incorrect address, as they failed to update their records.

Also, their response suggests that I may be able to file a Statutory Declaration – however, this will most likely be rejected as it has been 4 months since the Order for Recovery.
The correspondence is attached in the URL's below.

PCN
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery
Statutory Declaration
Representations
Response


As always, thanks for any support!
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post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:26
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Incandescent
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 07:56
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You can file a Statutory Declaration, but it will be an Out-of-Time one, so a bit more involved and great care has to be taken when filling in the forms. OOTs can be opposed by TfL. IN your case an SD should succeed. Any bailiffs around yet ?
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spaceman
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 09:01
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 00:26) *
On the 9th of October last year, I went into a congestion zone and forgot to pay the fine – purely because I was mistaken about how the system works.

Did you forget to pay the charge or were you "mistaken" about how the system works? Which?

Was this the first time you found yourself in the Congestion Charging Zone?

This post has been edited by spaceman: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 09:01
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Bstearman
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 16:47
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 08:56) *
You can file a Statutory Declaration, but it will be an Out-of-Time one, so a bit more involved and great care has to be taken when filling in the forms. OOTs can be opposed by TfL. IN your case an SD should succeed. Any bailiffs around yet ?

Nope, no bailiffs around, but I did check on their site and the PCN seems to have been put on hold.
So you suggest filling out the SD and sending it off?

QUOTE (spaceman @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 10:01) *
QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 00:26) *
On the 9th of October last year, I went into a congestion zone and forgot to pay the fine – purely because I was mistaken about how the system works.

Did you forget to pay the charge or were you "mistaken" about how the system works? Which?

Was this the first time you found yourself in the Congestion Charging Zone?

Bit of both to be honest. Usually we would take public transport into London, but I assumed something like an invoice would come through in the post requesting payment.I forgot to check my assumptions on the day, which could've prevented this whole thing from happening.

This post has been edited by Bstearman: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 16:47
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Incandescent
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:10
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Best to submit an SD, as it is free to submit. You have a very good reason for the PCN going astray, and hopefully, won't need an N244 to go to a judge, but one would hope a CC judge would see the logic of allowing your SD.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:12
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Neil B
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:24
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 16:47) *
So you suggest filling out the SD and sending it off?

Not on its own.

You need form PE2 to ask permission to file PE3 late.

That's where you explain what happened (why late).

As Inc. said, important to get it right. Post a draft here first.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...ion-out-of-time


And use a fresh PE3 perhaps.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...y-charge-notice


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 14:50
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So, errr, is that understood?

It's always a bit difficult to tell when we just get blank stares back.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bstearman
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 22:12
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 15:50) *
So, errr, is that understood?

It's always a bit difficult to tell when we just get blank stares back.


Yes!
Just been a bit busy lately. biggrin.gif

I haven't forgotten, so here is my draft for the PE2 (out of time):

"The contravention occurred on the 9th of October 2018 and the PCN issued on the 13th of October, at which point, I had settled at my new property. Following the move to the new address in September, the DLVA was informed. The V5C for the vehicle was processed by the DVLA on the 25th of October 2018, hence the Congestion Charge Penalty Charge Notice was directed to my previous address.

TfL failed to update their records, consequently, subsequent notices, including the Charge Certificate (issued 05/12/2018) and Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge (PE2) (issued 14/01/2019) were also sent to the incorrect address."


I'm assuming the above can also be used for the PE3 - correct me if wrong.

I've been looking around on how I can get the forms signed - am I correct in assuming that with an appointment, I can get them signed free of charge at the local county court?

Also, how long are PCN's typically put "On hold" for? Just worried, in case the bailiff window is open.

Thanks everyone!
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Neil B
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 22:52
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
"The contravention occurred on the 9th of October 2018 and the PCN issued on the 13th of October, at which point, I had settled at my new property. Following the move to the new address in September, the DLVA was informed. The V5C for the vehicle was processed by the DVLA on the 25th of October 2018, hence the Congestion Charge Penalty Charge Notice was directed to my previous address.

TfL failed to update their records, consequently, subsequent notices, including the Charge Certificate (issued 05/12/2018) and Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge (PE2) (issued 14/01/2019) were also sent to the incorrect address."


I'm assuming the above can also be used for the PE3 - correct me if wrong.

No.
Just
'I did not receive the PCN'



QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
"The contravention occurred on the 9th of October 2018 and the PCN issued on the 13th of October, at which point, I had settled at my new property. Following the move to the new address in September, the DLVA was informed. The V5C for the vehicle was processed by the DVLA on the 25th of October 2018, hence the Congestion Charge Penalty Charge Notice was directed to my previous address.

TfL failed to update their records, consequently, subsequent notices, including the Charge Certificate (issued 05/12/2018) and Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge (PE2) (issued 14/01/2019) were also sent to the incorrect address."


At which point have TfL failed? Your letter to them is undated? What notices arrived after you informed them of new address?

QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
Also, how long are PCN's typically put "On hold" for? Just worried, in case the bailiff window is open.

If a warrant has been authorised (ask TEC) the bailiff is active now.
Suspended after you file this application for 3- 7 weeks.

QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
I've been looking around on how I can get the forms signed - am I correct in assuming that with an appointment, I can get them signed free of charge at the local county court?

Yes.
'Signed' is a misnomer. You swear your oath then you and witness sign.

QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
Just been a bit busy lately. biggrin.gif

Trust us, you can't afford to be busy. Cos -
QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
Just worried, in case the bailiff window is open.

Almost certainly, as answered above.


Please answer my question re TfL failure?

Your PE2 is currently absent some vital content.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bstearman
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 16:25
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:52) *
No.
Just
'I did not receive the PCN'

Ah okay so I've overcomplicated that then.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:52) *
At which point have TfL failed? Your letter to them is undated? What notices arrived after you informed them of new address?

What I mean by this is that after the DVLA updated their records, TfL continued sending the PCN's to the previous address.
Apologies for not including the date in the above image, but I sent them the informal representations on the 25th of March.
I then got their reply on the 9th of April.
So, that was the only letter that was sent to the right address.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:52) *
QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
Also, how long are PCN's typically put "On hold" for? Just worried, in case the bailiff window is open.

If a warrant has been authorised (ask TEC) the bailiff is active now.
Suspended after you file this application for 3- 7 weeks.

ohmy.gif Luckily, I haven't had any visits yet.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:52) *
Your PE2 is currently absent some vital content.

What do you mean?
Sorry, didn't understand the above.
I thought the PE2 is just going to include the 'I did not receive the PCN.'

----EDIT ------


or do you mean the PE3 is going to include the 'I did not receive the PCN' and some stuff is missing from the PE2.
I assume that's what you mean, so what do you reckon needs adding?

This post has been edited by Bstearman: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 16:27
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Neil B
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 17:13
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 17:25) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:52) *
At which point have TfL failed? Your letter to them is undated? What notices arrived after you informed them of new address?

What I mean by this is that after the DVLA updated their records, TfL continued sending the PCN's to the previous address.
Apologies for not including the date in the above image, but I sent them the informal representations on the 25th of March.
I then got their reply on the 9th of April.
So, that was the only letter that was sent to the right address.

So no statutory notices sent to the wrong address and TfL did not fail.

They only check with DVLA once, when they want to issue a PCN. Why would they check again at some point, without having
cause to, even if they could.

Reality is that TfL will decide your OOT application, not TEC (although officially TEC do).

Attacking the people you want help and understanding from is daft, especially when you're wrong.

You need to highlighting the exact opposite, the truth, that this situation was neither their fault or yours.
That it was just an unfortunate coincidence of timing. Just as you started to explain in your early part.

--

And this is an application to a court: Statements must be backed up by evidence: i.e. your V5C you refer to and proofs of address
change - ideally both ends.

QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 17:25) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:52) *
QUOTE (Bstearman @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 23:12) *
Also, how long are PCN's typically put "On hold" for? Just worried, in case the bailiff window is open.

If a warrant has been authorised (ask TEC) the bailiff is active now.
Suspended after you file this application for 3- 7 weeks.

ohmy.gif Luckily, I haven't had any visits yet.

Even if a warrant doesn't have your current address on it, if a bailiff clamps your car anywhere on the
highway you'll be looking at inconvenience and £668.

You need to take on board what I've said above and get this filed asap.

Did you speak to TEC as suggested?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 17:14


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bstearman
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 19:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 18:13) *
Attacking the people you want help and understanding from is daft, especially when you're wrong.

Whoa, I wansn't expecting that. I was just trying to clarify what I meat in my previous post.
I had no intention to offend you icon_redface.gif

Unless you mean TfL, in which case, yes I see what you mean now.
I thought the TEC was the adjudicator so I was trying to get them on my side.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 18:13) *
Did you speak to TEC as suggested?

Unfortunately not. I got home and came straight here - their call centre closes at 5pm so I might give it a shot tomorrow.

Okay so second draft:
"The contravention occurred on the 9th of October 2018 and the PCN issued on the 13th of October, at which point, I had settled at my new property. Following the move to the new address in September, the DLVA was informed. The V5C for the vehicle was processed by the DVLA on the 25th of October 2018, hence the Congestion Charge Penalty Charge Notice was directed to my previous address.

Unfortunately, due to the timing of events, the fault does not lie with myself or TfL; this situation was unavoidable with a 12-day window preventing me from receiving the PCN and later correspondences.
"

This post has been edited by Bstearman: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 19:56
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Neil B
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 20:36
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 20:56) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 18:13) *
Attacking the people you want help and understanding from is daft, especially when you're wrong.

Whoa, I wansn't expecting that. I was just trying to clarify what I meat in my previous post.
I had no intention to offend you icon_redface.gif

laugh.gif
Not me!

Your draft attacked TfL for a "failure" and they are as innocent as you.

QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 20:56) *
Okay so second draft:
"The contravention occurred on the 9th of October 2018 and the PCN issued on the 13th of October, at which point, I had settled at my new property. Following the move to the new address in September, the DLVA was informed. The V5C for the vehicle was processed by the DVLA on the 25th of October 2018, hence the Congestion Charge Penalty Charge Notice was directed to my previous address. "

And the evidence and references to items attached?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 20:38


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bstearman
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 21:12
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 21:36) *
laugh.gif
Not me!

Your draft attacked TfL for a "failure" and they are as innocent as you.


Thank god!

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 21:36) *
QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 20:56) *
Okay so second draft:
"The contravention occurred on the 9th of October 2018 and the PCN issued on the 13th of October, at which point, I had settled at my new property. Following the move to the new address in September, the DLVA was informed. The V5C for the vehicle was processed by the DVLA on the 25th of October 2018, hence the Congestion Charge Penalty Charge Notice was directed to my previous address. "

And the evidence and references to items attached?


I've got the V5C attached and referenced. Also got a copy of the mortgage letter. It states 20th of August at the commencement, but we moved in on the 1st and I sent the change of address on the 13th or 15th of September. This shouldn't be a problem? I'm just showing that at the time I was residing at a new address.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 21:20
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I wish you success with your application.

Quite where you got the impression that the Congestion Charge administration send out individual invoices for all vehicles entering the zone I do not know. There are thousands entering the zone every day ! Of course one can set up an auto-pay account and regulars do this.
Anyway, if you don't already know it, you can pay the charge in advance and up to midnight of the day following entry into the zone. Any payment made after this cutoff does not get applied retrospectively, it is held for a future entry. So a PCN will eventually be issued for an unpaid charge. The same, virtually identical, system is used for the Dartford Crossing (bridge and tunnels), and for Merseyflow, the new bridge across the Mersey at Runcorn.
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Neil B
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 21:39
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 22:12) *
I've got the V5C attached and referenced. Also got a copy of the mortgage letter. It states 20th of August at the commencement, but we moved in on the 1st and I sent the change of address on the 13th or 15th of September. This shouldn't be a problem? I'm just showing that at the time I was residing at a new address.

I don't want to delay you: There is a 4pm cut off time daily, for processing.
On your call to TEC check the e-mail address for filing. tec@justice.gov.uk ?maybe.

Ideally, as I said, both ends of move: i.e. Not at xxx, was at xxx.
Your proposed evidence hardly ideal.

Council Tax, utilities. The list is endless for possibilities of better stuff.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bstearman
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 22:43
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 22:20) *
I wish you success with your application.

Quite where you got the impression that the Congestion Charge administration send out individual invoices for all vehicles entering the zone I do not know. There are thousands entering the zone every day ! Of course one can set up an auto-pay account and regulars do this.
Anyway, if you don't already know it, you can pay the charge in advance and up to midnight of the day following entry into the zone. Any payment made after this cutoff does not get applied retrospectively, it is held for a future entry. So a PCN will eventually be issued for an unpaid charge. The same, virtually identical, system is used for the Dartford Crossing (bridge and tunnels), and for Merseyflow, the new bridge across the Mersey at Runcorn.

Thanks Inc. I'm just hoping that I'm not too late on this one.


QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 22:39) *
QUOTE (Bstearman @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 22:12) *
I've got the V5C attached and referenced. Also got a copy of the mortgage letter. It states 20th of August at the commencement, but we moved in on the 1st and I sent the change of address on the 13th or 15th of September. This shouldn't be a problem? I'm just showing that at the time I was residing at a new address.

I don't want to delay you: There is a 4pm cut off time daily, for processing.
On your call to TEC check the e-mail address for filing. tec@justice.gov.uk ?maybe.

Ideally, as I said, both ends of move: i.e. Not at xxx, was at xxx.
Your proposed evidence hardly ideal.

Council Tax, utilities. The list is endless for possibilities of better stuff.


So I've got three pieces of evidence, a mortgage summary with my previous address, a proof of purchase of the new property and a registration letter; all dated.
I think that might be enough.

I'm planning on going to a solicitor tomorrow and getting this finalised and yes I'll check the email address as well.
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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 20:39
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All done?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bstearman
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 18:54
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Yep, all sent last night.
The email was right, I was just advised to send each form separately.
Luckily, enforcement hasn’t been enabled yet!
Thanks for all the support. I’ll let you know of any further replies.
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 21:22
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QUOTE (Bstearman @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 19:54) *
Yep, all sent last night.

And got auto-acknowledgements?

And you put your current address on the forms?



QUOTE (Bstearman @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 19:54) *
Luckily, enforcement hasn’t been enabled yet!

Almost certainly means no warrant applied for yet, which is unusual and makes this interesting.

Later.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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