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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ Received NIP but not the owner/RK at the time
Posted by: phey708 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:06
Post #1397564
Hi,
I received a NIP dated on 13th of May 2018 this year for a speeding offence of 39 in a 30 zone, however I did not get the car until the 16th of May. It came with a covering letter stating that I am the recent RK/insurer of the car and they are chasing me for more information (by filling out relevant section of NIP).
I have filled out the form as best as I could including the date I acquired the vehicle however I could not remember the name of the person I bought it from, just the address and telephone number. Have also checked my V5 that came in the post but the previous owner section was missing. Despite sending this information away they have responded saying that I have incomplete the form and could potentially end up in front of mag's court.
Obviously this is a bit stressful especially as I only bought the car on the 16th which is 3 days after the offence. I have also seen the photo evidence online and I am very confident that the driver was not me. I also have text messages which proves that I am arriving on the 16th to pick the car up and I have kept these just in case.
What should the next course of action be? Should I write back that I have to the best of my knowledge tried to nominate previous owner and you should chase previous owner via DVLA?
Thanks.
Posted by: Jlc Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:22
Post #1397569
As you can show you weren’t the person keeping the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence your obligations are much lower than if you were.
You need to ‘...give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver’.
You can only give what you have/remember. It would be quite hard for them to show you did not do this assuming you have responded accordingly. Perhaps they could actually do some investigation of their own with all of the information you have given them.
To find you guilty of the offence (s172/failing to furnish - not the speeding) they would have to show you had some information that you didn’t provide that could have assisted in identifying the driver...
Unless they think there’s some keeper shenanigans going on.
Posted by: localdriver Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:59
Post #1397601
Previous registered keeper's details should be in part 2 on the front page.
Posted by: phey708 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:03
Post #1397605
I will end up drafting a letter back which might explain the situation better...
NIP Reference: xxxxxxxxxx
Date: 10/7/2018
To whom it may concern,
I bought the vehicle in question on the 16th of May which is 3 days after the speeding offence has been committed and I have evidence to support this. I have to the best of my ability, in accordance with The Road Traffic Act 1988 section 172, provided information to the best of my knowledge about the previous owner of the vehicle. It is unreasonable to expect me to know who the driver was at the time of the offence as I was neither the owner or the registered keeper, and a summons to magistrate court would not be beneficial to both of us.
I would however suggest contacting the DVLA to find out additional information regarding the previous owner who would then be able to assist you further in identifying the driver who committed the speeding offence.
Yours Respectfully,
xxxxxxxxx
Registered Keeper.
What do you think?
Posted by: Logician Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:05
Post #1397608
The police probably find it difficult to accept you do not know the name of the previous owner, so if you could find that out you might be of the hook. Did you pay for the car in cash? Any other method would give some clue about the owner. How did you find the car? An advert probably gave a name. Did you make a note somewhere when you arranged to go and see it, look for scraps of paper etc. Possibly the previous owner failed to register the car, so the police do not have his name and are suspicious of you.
Posted by: phey708 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:08
Post #1397609
Previous registered keeper's details should be in part 2 on the front page.
On section 2 it just has:
2. Data Protection
DVLA handles your personal data in accordance with road vehicle law and data protection laws. The law allows us to release your data to the police and other enforcement bodies.....
I paid for in cash and it was from a private sale. The advert only shows a username and not the full person's name however using Google reveals this username is linked to twitter which shows the full name of the person. Searching for this person's name in the town I collected the car reveals a company where the name is linked to the exact address I collected the car from.
I am 95% certain I have the name of the previous owner but I don't want to submit this and it turns out to be false information.
Posted by: Jlc Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:12
Post #1397611
See Logician’s post - need more info.
But you need to ensure you provide everything you have.
Seems a bit perverse signing off as registered keeper. I’d distance myself from that as you were not on the material date...
Posted by: phey708 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:17
Post #1397618
See Logician’s post - need more info.
But you need to ensure you provide everything you have.
Seems a bit perverse signing off as registered keeper. I’d distance myself from that as you were not on the material date...
I have tried my best but I can't be 100% on previous owners name. What about amending to the following:
Given my best efforts, I can nominate xxxxx xxxxxx who may reside at the address from which I collected the vehicle from, however I can not confidently say this was the driver at the time of the offence. I would however suggest contacting the DVLA to find out additional information regarding the previous owner who would then be able to assist you further in identifying the driver who committed the speeding offence.
Yours Respectfully,
xxxxxxxxx
Posted by: Jlc Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:39
Post #1397631
You can only provide the information you have (that may lead to the identification of the driver).
There's no possible way you could provide who was driving - don't worry about that.
Simply, give the information you have - be that a Google username etc. You are not expected to do the Police's job and start investigating...
I wouldn't make suggestions to them - that will only wind them up... 
Some Forces can be rather obtuse about this process - threatening Magistrate's - geez...
Posted by: phey708 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:46
Post #1397636
There's no possible way you could provide who was driving - don't worry about that.
Simply, give the information you have - be that a Google username etc. You are not expected to do the Police's job and start investigating...
I wouldn't make suggestions to them - that will only wind them up...
Some Forces can be rather obtuse about this process - threatening Magistrate's - geez...Final edit:
Given my best efforts, I can nominate xxxxx xxxxxx who may reside at the address from which I collected the vehicle from as this can be found on a company directory.
Yours Respectfully
Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:48
Post #1397638
I paid for in cash and it was from a private sale. The advert only shows a username and not the full person's name however using Google reveals this username is linked to twitter which shows the full name of the person. Searching for this person's name in the town I collected the car reveals a company where the name is linked to the exact address I collected the car from.
So send all of this information, with print outs showing the user name, the google search, twitter screenshots and so on. Providing you don't have reasons to suspect the information is false, you will have fulfilled your obligations and then some. You can't give information that you don't have.
Posted by: Jlc Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:50
Post #1397639
You don't have to nominate at all - nor use best efforts. Simply lay out the information you have as cp notes...
Posted by: phey708 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:02
Post #1397644
You don't have to nominate at all - nor use best efforts. Simply lay out the information you have as cp notes...
Final edit before I send tomorrow....
Please find enclosed evidence which should help you in assisting with finding the previous owner and potentially the driver of the speeding offence.
Yours Respectfully,
xxxxxxxxx
Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:11
Post #1397648
You don't have to nominate at all - nor use best efforts. Simply lay out the information you have as cp notes...
Final edit before I send tomorrow....
Please find enclosed evidence which should help you in assisting with finding the previous owner and potentially the driver of the speeding offence.
Yours Respectfully,
xxxxxxxxx
Personally I would include a short narrative explaining the circumstances, and what the evidence relates to (i.e. this is the seller's twitter username, this is a google search linking him to this address which is the address where I bought the car...)
Posted by: Churchmouse Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 01:07
Post #1397784
But you did include that information, the address and telephone number, right? I hope you didn't decide that because you couldn't give a name, you didn't still need to give them the information that you did have...
You only have 28 days to respond to the s.172, so sending dribs and drabs of information after that time arguably won't help--if the police are minded to prosecute you. As mentioned above, you are not required to do any "investigation"; I suspect the police just didn't believe your claim that you didn't know the seller's name, so they decided to have another go. However, in order to actually convict you of the offence, they'd need to prove somehow that you did know the seller's name (or some other relevant bit of information), which would be challenging for them unless there are links between the two of you that could be found.
--Churchmouse
Posted by: nigelbb Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 06:53
Post #1397794
Why should the current RK be expected to know the details of the previous RK when it's the DVLA who keep track of all these details. Nowadays with continuous insurance, tax & SORN the DVLA always have a record of the RK as that is who they will fine if the car isn't taxed or SORNed.
Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:24
Post #1397802
Well maybe s172 should be altered to take what you say into account, but we can only advise the OP on the basis of the law as it stands.
Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:13
Post #1397850
Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.
Posted by: nigelbb Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:55
Post #1397876
Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.
If the DVLA provided details of the RK at the time of the offence isn't that the person who should be pursued & not someone who became the RK a few days later? It is only the DVLA who definitively know who the RK is/was at any particular time.
It's also odd that the OP's copy of the V5C does not have the name of the previous RK. The only way this should normally happen is if the vehicle were purchased new.
Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:17
Post #1397881
Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.
If the DVLA provided details of the RK at the time of the offence isn't that the person who should be pursued & not someone who became the RK a few days later? It is only the DVLA who definitively know who the RK is/was at any particular time.
It's also odd that the OP's copy of the V5C does not have the name of the previous RK. The only way this should normally happen is if the vehicle were purchased new.
If the previous RK has said they disposed of the car some time before the alleged offence date (or it was without an RK) how or why would the Police pursue them?
Posted by: phey708 Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 11:05
Post #1397895
But you did include that information, the address and telephone number, right? I hope you didn't decide that because you couldn't give a name, you didn't still need to give them the information that you did have...
You only have 28 days to respond to the s.172, so sending dribs and drabs of information after that time arguably won't help--if the police are minded to prosecute you. As mentioned above, you are not required to do any "investigation"; I suspect the police just didn't believe your claim that you didn't know the seller's name, so they decided to have another go. However, in order to actually convict you of the offence, they'd need to prove somehow that you did know the seller's name (or some other relevant bit of information), which would be challenging for them unless there are links between the two of you that could be found.
--Churchmouse
Yes I gave them both but they sent it back saying I needed to fill out name.
Posted by: peterguk Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 11:08
Post #1397896
Phone and ask?
Posted by: nigelbb Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 11:37
Post #1397907
Assuming the previous registered keeper was the person actually selling the car, the fact it has got to this stage suggests otherwise, the first NIP back in May probably went to the previous RK.
If the DVLA provided details of the RK at the time of the offence isn't that the person who should be pursued & not someone who became the RK a few days later? It is only the DVLA who definitively know who the RK is/was at any particular time.
It's also odd that the OP's copy of the V5C does not have the name of the previous RK. The only way this should normally happen is if the vehicle were purchased new.
If the previous RK has said they disposed of the car some time before the alleged offence date (or it was without an RK) how or why would the Police pursue them?
Unless the vehicle is in trade it cannot be without an RK. The point is that if a car is on the road then the DVLA will always know who is responsible for paying road tax. If it's not on the road they will know who SORNed it.
Posted by: Vampgirl Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 12:08
Post #1397922
We recently bought a second hand car and the V5 when it arrived did not have the previous keeper's address in section 2 either - just the same sentence about data protection. Maybe its something new? GDPR?
Posted by: Jlc Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 12:26
Post #1397930
We recently bought a second hand car and the V5 when it arrived did not have the previous keeper's address in section 2 either - just the same sentence about data protection. Maybe its something new? GDPR?
Indeed, previous keeper information is not on the v5 any more - see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/720466/mis546-giving-people-information-from-our-vehicle-record.pdf
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