Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Richard11 Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:27
Post #1332355

I was already waiting at a red light when the ambulance came around the corner behind me a few moments later. Despite the ambulance honking its horn, I chose not to make room by moving forwards even though it was safe to do so because I would have run a red light by a couple of meters.

I feel a little guilty blocking the ambulance even though it was only for maybe 10 few seconds until the lights changed back to green, but the law is the law ? highway code 219. It feels like a case of complying with the law to avoid potential prosecution, but not doing the right thing. Anyone else had a similar experience ?

Posted by: DancingDad Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:31
Post #1332356

Yes
If it seems safe I've encroached the line as well, it may be me one day needing the help.

Posted by: Fredd Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 18:24
Post #1332372

The ambulance really, really shouldn't have been sounding its horn - they're meant to sit there with just the blues on until you can legally get out of the way, or use their own dispensation to (safely) manoeuvre around you/the lights.

Having said that, on the basis that the ambulance wouldn't be using blues & twos unless some poor sod urgently needed their help, if it was safe personally I'd have moved over the line, and had the argument afterwards if I did get a NIP. But then I don't have any points or need a clean licence, so it'd be easier for me than some others.

Posted by: andy_foster Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 19:47
Post #1332392

A tautology often somewhat ironically uttered by those that have little idea of what the law actually is.



Dunno what that is off the top of my head, but it ain't "the law".

Where the simple principle of "the law is the law" often falls down is that it assumes that only a single statutory or common law provision applies to a given situation - in this case, s. 36 RTA 1988 - thou shalt not disobey prescribed traffic signs. However, s. 36 does not create an absolute offence. Defences of duress and duress of circumstances can apply (assuming that the facts of the case support them). As might the public interest test. If you plough into other traffic in order to allow an ambulance to pass, or otherwise do something similarly stupid, it would be difficult to defend, but if you reasonably believed that delaying an ambulance (particularly one which is actively indicating it's desire for you to get pout of its way) might create a risk of death or serious injury, and you do no more than is necessary to mitigate that risk, I would say that you have a sound defence.

Posted by: mickR Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:45
Post #1332405

Pretty sure there was a thread where someone was nip'd for doing exactly what the OP didn't. Think it was from a red light camera iirc

Posted by: Richard11 Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 11:53
Post #1332493

Andy - is there any need for the start of your comment be abrasive ? You're correct, I do not know the law, hence the question mark ? followed by the tautology (great word by the way!)

I do however thank you for quoting the RTA, and providing useful information towards the end of your response.

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 17:48
Post #1332562

It was a general comment, not aimed specifically at you, but if you want to feel offended, be my guest.

Posted by: Incandescent Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 22:11
Post #1332605

So if "the law", (which for most people is the magistrates courts) is not an ass, as you seem to be saying, why has this forum had cases where people have moved forward to let an ambulance through, got a ticket and the magistrates have upheld it ?

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 23:48
Post #1332629

If you would like to point out specific examples, I can offer an opinion on whether the court applied the law correctly to the facts of those cases.

Posted by: Richard11 Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 01:35
Post #1332637

Andy - we’re going to become best of friends, I see that now.

Posted by: Tartarus Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 21:06
Post #1332790

Yep, first thing that sprung to mind as well, wasn't that long ago someone got red light NIP for encroaching when moving out the way for an ambulance.

Posted by: Incandescent Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 21:30
Post #1332799

Andy knows full well that there has been at least one post of this forum where somebody moved forward to let an ambulancde through, got a ticket from a red light camera, went to court and the penalty was upheld. Are magistrates just thick and stupid or were they misdirected in law ? Even if they were misdirected have they no back-bone at all ?

Posted by: andy_foster Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 21:41
Post #1332804

Please don't tell me what I know.

I do not recall any such case, although that does not mean that there are no such cases. Perhaps you could point us to such a case, rather than making untrue statements?

Posted by: Incandescent Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 23:34
Post #1332841

http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t25519.html

http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t26757.html

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t70509.html

A few things here. I'm not sure whether they prove my point, though.

Posted by: andy_foster Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 23:46
Post #1332842

2 pleaded guilty, and the other thread is merely a "will anything happen?".

Posted by: Lodesman Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:17
Post #1333038

This seems to cover much of what is being discussed.

https://youtu.be/btRHvQEIkcU

Make of it what you wish. Seems sensible advice to me.

Posted by: Fredd Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:24
Post #1333042

It covers half of what's being discussed, anyway.

Posted by: DancingDad Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 16:07
Post #1333058

Covers some of my pet hates on how people react when blues and twos appear.
Pulling over on blind bends and hills for one.
Why people do it beats me, the emergency drivers are usually good but not clairvoyant.

Posted by: Rallyman72 Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 13:17
Post #1333336

Sometimes there is no need to pull over and certainly no need to immediately stop. Carrying on will often get one to a wider bit of road or an opportunity to pull over. A bit of thought will help the emergency crew, lack of it can hinder them.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 15:36
Post #1333390

Quite liked the "don't overtake an emergency vehicle with blue lights"

Why ever not

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 15:47
Post #1333392

i agree you see people doing stupid things (and they say the driving test is harder now) but what really gets my goat is people who just don't care pulling out of junctions or into a lane in front of ambulance

Did any one see the news story last week about the idiot who stuck a note on an ambulance windscreen because it was parked in front of their drive. Trying to save a gut's life.
nice neighbour


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/12/dont-block-drive-note-left-ambulance-paramedics-treat-critically/

Posted by: Fredd Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 16:19
Post #1333400

Ever found yourself behind a fire engine on a motorway?

Posted by: mickR Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 19:04
Post #1333455

+1

Posted by: mickR Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 19:22
Post #1333467

Especially if it's one https://www.smythstoys.com/uk/en-gb/outdoor/electric-ride-ons/police-6v-motorbike-ride-on/p/147066?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu5D_2rDQ1wIVQrHtCh1CgQnpEAQYASABEgKU3_D_BwE

Posted by: DancingDad Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 21:19
Post #1333530

Yup, three of them in convoy on one occasion, all manfully holding 55-60 in the inside lane with the blues flashing.
Mea Culpa, I was not behind for long.

I quite like the ambulance on a motorway, blues flashing half mile behind you but not catching up...never seen the point of slowing to let it go past.
But am aware that it could be going to a crash further along so am alert for the wall to wall brake lights ahead and sudden stop.

Posted by: Steve_999 Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 23:20
Post #1333590

Or serious spinal injury for which slow and steady is safer for the patient than quick and jerky?

Posted by: mickR Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 23:07
Post #1335830

I'm in favour of slow and steady

Posted by: Steve_999 Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 23:32
Post #1335835

But then again, variety is the spice of life is it not?

Posted by: fedup2 Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 07:52
Post #1335852

Who is they?

Posted by: peterguk Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 10:07
Post #1335873

Those that fail?

Posted by: fedup2 Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 11:07
Post #1335885

Its now kids stuff with few excersises actually tested and more time going to showing how to turn the wipers on rather than how to actually drive.As of 2nd nov reverse round a corner was dropped aswell so with 15 minors to go at,a chimp has a reasonable chance of passing and it shows on the roads.

A distant family member has recently 'passed' within hours they had bashed a wall and hasnt the confidence to take P plates off nor go on a motorway.They are absolutely useless and beggers belief they have passed,even by their own statings.

As for emergency vehicles,they dont drop out of the sky.If you drive not stuffed upto the bumper in front or on red light lines then there is always somewhere to go.Trouble is many panic and instead of just creating a passing point,cause mayhem pulling onto kerbs and all other sorts of unessercary dangerous crap that really isnt required should you use a little bit of thought and planning.Ive certainly never found the need to run a red light to enable a blue light to pass.

Posted by: SDWA Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 20:44
Post #1336704

Been there. Had a blue flasher (cops) come behind me at a red light and the street furniture meant it couldn't get past. But the horn or siren was not sounded, and I couldn't be sure if there was a camera there. I crept right up to the line and as soon as the light changed let him pass - as the car did, they didn't gesture or even look in my direction (having an emergency on their minds). Emergency vehicle drivers probably think the same as most of us do about this.

Posted by: DancingDad Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 23:20
Post #1337438

An interesting variation on the theme earlier today.
Wide road, moving traffic, blues and twos behind as ambulance crosses the lights 100yds back.
Blues stay on, traffic moves over and indeed stops.
Ambulance overtakes.
White Van Man decides to take advantage of the stopped traffic and pulls out from side road, across highway and ambulance.
Cue brakes, horns and sirens back on (not necessarily in that order)
Ambulance was braking before white van cleared the static car so they were aware.
Unlike White Van Man.
White van man cursing and gesturing at ambulance before getting out of the way was the icing on the cake.

Posted by: whitewing Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 00:32
Post #1339883

In that situation I'd probably move, but record the ambulance on phone/dashcam as evidence

Posted by: Korting Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 17:01
Post #1344580

If you did get a NIP for crossing a red light to allow an emergency vehicle to pass, you'd have to plead guilty but with mitigating circumstances and hope for the magistrates to dismiss the case.

BUT

There used to be some give and take with the police which sadly has all but gone, so I'm with the O/P on this one and will not go through a red light for anyone unless directed to by a uniformed officer. Not 'uniformed' not plain clothes police with a warrant card.

Look at it this way, you help the emergency services out but get landed with £100 fine, three points, an increase in insurance premiums. So not thanks ~i'll stay behind the line at a red traffic light.

Posted by: Fredd Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 17:31
Post #1344596

Unfortunately, in the case of an ambulance or fire engine at least, it's not really the emergency services you're hurting but the poor b*****d they're going to help - which for some of us results in a dilemma.

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:03
Post #1344610

Is this just your unqualified opinion, or is it concrete fact backed up with case law?

Posted by: Korting Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:15
Post #1344615

I'm not a lawyer, but technically if you pass a red light, your are guilty of the offence, the mitigating circumstances are that committed the offense in order to assist an emergency vehicle.

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:20
Post #1344623

If you had bothered to read the thread before posting you opinions as fact, you would be aware that s. 36(1) does not create an absolute offence (please note the spelling), so the defences of duress and duress of circumstances could apply. If you reasonably believed that it was necessary and appropriate to cross the red light in order to mitigate a real likelihood of death or serious injury, then no offence would have been committed by doing so.

Posted by: southpaw82 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:31
Post #1344629

You’re not a lawyer but you’re going to make an absolute assertion as to the law? Pretty brave...

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 19:58
Post #1344653

Buckoke v. Greater London Council [1971] Ch. 655 suggests that it the circumstances you describe would not be a defence in a criminal court. Of course, you could look at challenging the prosecutorial decision, but that's another kettle of fish altogether.

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:19
Post #1344657

That appears to predate the courts' acceptance of the defence of duress of circumstances.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:37
Post #1344663

The problem is it's all down to how reasonable it is to believe, in the circumstances of a particular case, that there is a risk of serious death or injury. The driver hoking his horn and gesticulating might help a defendant, but then you're getting very fact specific. There have been occasions where an ambulance has been on blue lights, but, to be honest, whether we got there 5 minutes earlier or later was never going to make that big a difference.

Posted by: PECFRO Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57
Post #1346445

One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.

Posted by: DancingDad Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:04
Post #1346452

That's interesting.
How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ?

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:21
Post #1346597

Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not.

Posted by: DancingDad Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 20:11
Post #1346601

That's fair enough but I was thinking more on requesting the control room to release their tracking data.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:09
Post #1346835

If you want aggregated data, make a request under the Freedom of Information Act, they will release it appropriately anonymised and you don't even have to pay a £10 fee.

Posted by: MFM Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:34
Post #1347229

There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother.

Posted by: big_mac Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:00
Post #1347366

Some people might think it's more socially responsible to get out of the way, if it's possible to do so safely.

(They certainly don't always sit and wait quietly for the lights to change; from my experiences up here, it's more likely that they don't.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifD2H_iLyNI&t=1s

Posted by: mickR Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:11
Post #1347370

As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing?

Posted by: DancingDad Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:20
Post #1347400

Absolutely.

Though saw a sight today that may have left me in a quandary if it came behind me at the lights....
On motorway, horns and blue lights coming up in outside lane, turned out to be a black Volvo with discrete blues in the grill..... fine, a plain motorway patrol car.
But followed by a old, battered, white over rust Transit, orange light set on top and again, blues in the grill and it turned out, behind.....
Get that behind you at the lights and you would think the local travellers were taking the pee.

Posted by: Korting Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:20
Post #1347797

As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely.

A car behind you hinting their horn, doesn't in my opinion satisfy this requirement

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:56
Post #1347807

There is a difference between crossing the junction and continuing on your merry way and crossing the line to pull over enough to let the EV through i would always do the second
but the first only with extreme care

Posted by: djtaylor Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:42
Post #1351347

This thread is particularly interesting to me because exactly this scenario happened, except it was a police car and not an ambulance. I was already at the front in the right most or 3 lanes at a roundabout, nowhere to move to and the police car was help up for all of 6 seconds before the lights changed. However, the gestures of the police officers and clear mouthing off from them as they passed, led me to call the police station and make a complaint.

The Sarge who dealt with it was doing his best to encourage me that they wouldn't seek to prosecute anyone that moved out of the way.

I'll treat a case on its merits but in this situation I wasn't crossing the line without proper direction from a police officer and waving his hands wasn't proper direction.

Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:46
Post #1351366

Personally, I regard blues and twos up my chuff with a cop waving at me and mouthing "get outa the 'effing way you stupid twonker" as proper direction.

Posted by: mickR Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:01
Post #1351388

Exactly my earlier point

Can you qualify this?

Posted by: manuel-fawlty Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:11
Post #1351497

How do you know that's what he is sounding his horn for?
How do you know he is uniformed?
For that matter, how do you know he is police?
I make it a point nowadays of stopping immediately when I hear/see what appears to be a police car approaching from behind. They are usually driven recklessly, sometimes dangerously, and that is wisest. If this at traffic lights, tough for them. I will not move.

Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:23
Post #1351501

Blues and twos on a battenburg colour scheme are often a good clue.

Posted by: southpaw82 Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:53
Post #1351510

Tough for anyone they might be trying to help, too. But never mind, eh, at least you can smugly congratulate yourself on sticking it to the man.

Posted by: peterguk Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:55
Post #1351512

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:20
Post #1351533

If that's not the outcome Parliament wants, they could always add an exemption.

Posted by: southpaw82 Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:41
Post #1351540

Other than the one already in place when directed by a constable, which is what we’re talking about here?

The government could impose an exemption covering all emergency vehicles but then the approach seems to be an application of common sense - by the CPS, the police, and the public. Otherwise we’d have to have all sorts of exemptions, like for emergency vehicle drivers from careless driving etc.

Posted by: Churchmouse Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 15:12
Post #1353648

Surely, the ideal of having seamless, automatic enforcement of minor traffic offences is worth sacrificing a few lives?


[Just keeping up with the high standard of trolling in this thread...]

--Churchmouse