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DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 13:17


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QUOTE (m7891 @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 13:10) *
You learn something new every day.

It does seem odd, though, that an exemption would be granted to this particular restriction when it’s a time-limited one. Is it not more logical to say that if you want to deliver perishables, so do before 8am or after 9.30am? It kind of defeats the purpose of the time-limit otherwise.

Obviously if it were a 24hr restriction it would be different.


Delivery only before or after a time would apply to many deliveries but a milk or beer wagon doing a round of deliveries might be hard pressed.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1462912 · Replies: 5 · Views: 122

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 12:57


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We are not used to speedy responses but not suspicious in itself, only a small area with possibly little for the considering officer to do.

Given what you have said and their response I would only like to see any CEO pictures to confirm how far onto the lines you were.
And whether this could be seen as deminimis.

Otherwise, I cannot see the bit on the PCN that says that all challenges made before an NTO will be considered or that once an NTO is served that must be challenged in the form or manner specified.

Appeals Regs 2007 3(2)(b) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—
…..
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462908 · Replies: 2 · Views: 12

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 12:49


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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:19) *
...….I'm with Dad, as in my first response, that where the error occurred would be useful but not essential.
……….


My only fear on that was if the error was self inflicted.
As per not updating DVLA but in this case not updating or correcting Motability.
But seems to have been checked and can be evidenced with Motability agreement papers.
To me it then comes down to someone c0cked up but it wasn't me so I cannot be punished for it.
Said nicely of course.

I would love to get something in that puts the council totally in the wrong but that will depend on what OP finds tomorrow from further discussions with Motability.
If they can confirm they sent the right address, we have that in writing and we put it in the OOT then council would have to be really obtuse to object and TEC to accept the objection.
As we all know, wording is everything with an OOT and even then needs the gods to smile.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462906 · Replies: 14 · Views: 208

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 10:16


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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 10:11) *
Post the council's pics. Let's see if they are like the previous case. I had a feeling we'd be seeing this one again...


Plus 1


The relative vehicle positions look similar but would like to check
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462887 · Replies: 4 · Views: 70

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 09:58


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@HCA
Don't disagree with any of that smile.gif
I prefer the more narrative over legalistic but that is opinion.
Fully agree council can be and should be informed of the wrong address issue, I would suggest once clearer information has been obtained from TEC and Motability and worded to persuade them not to contest the OOT or at least think twice on it.

Obviously the more info the better but OP must IMO stay with process, ie OOT.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462884 · Replies: 14 · Views: 208

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 09:33


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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 09:10) *
They cannot change the address on a warrant to one where notices were not sent in the first instance!.!…………..
Happens all the time, we see many cases of wrong address from DVLA records being wrong and where it is obvious that Notices would not have got to intended recipient.


The council can stop action quicker than TEC and all this dancing around without getting back to the council worries me.



I don't disagree with contacting council.
But when was the last time you saw a council, any council, pulling back bailiffs and resetting to earlier notices without being told to by TEC ???
Mind you, if they did we could then claim the new NTO was out of time rolleyes.gif

There is a process.
Yes Op should and is checking with Motability to see if the error came from them, ATM it does not seem to have done.
OP's recorded address is correct with Motability.
They have checked that.
That is the sum total of their responsibility in this.
Anything else is an admin error, whether at council or motability, dunno, don't care.
They can check what address is held for the warrant with TEC on Monday.

This is a OoT that should provide all the necessary elements.
Obviously needs tuning to suit what OP finds out tomorrow.

IE
I could not action this earlier as I had no knowledge of any PCN nor had received any of the required Notices.
The first I knew of this was when a bailiff appeared with a warrant made out to the wrong address.....details needed.
This is a Motobility vehicle, registered with DVLA to Motability.
Motability have my correct address on record.....proof required, copy of recent letter or email from Motability re this.
Motability have confirmed that they sent the right address or wrong address..whatever comes from the PCN people there on Monday.
How or why the enforcement authority used the wrong house number I can/cannot say but they did.
This is not my fault in anyway, it is simply a case where notices were sent to the wrong address.
Given this there can be no expectation that I could have actioned them sooner.
Please allow my OOT, the authority may assert that they sent notices to the address they were given.
I cannot dispute that but once again state that this is not and cannot be something that I can be held responsible for.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462880 · Replies: 14 · Views: 208

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 08:49


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QUOTE (turkontour7 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 17:48) *
k - I'm ready to take this on
What happens next?



Could you confirm what you sent to them as a challenge?
The wording I suggested or otherwise.

A copy would be good.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462873 · Replies: 35 · Views: 589

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 07:56


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 22:51) *
I see your point. It won't get tested here either as it'll be cancelled on the sloping kerb issue.


I suspect you are right but IMO should be added to any continuous contravention challenge.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462863 · Replies: 14 · Views: 126

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 21:15


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 21:00) *
It's been ruled on before in Suki Ashley Fraser v London Borough of Barnet (case reference 2170557869).

Where the restriction is part time some adjudicators say that a new contravention occurs every time the restriction comes into force, but as a DK applies 24/7, that exception is irrelevant here so the council can only serve 1 PCN, even on the interpretation of the law most favourable to the council.


The third argument goes further then cancelling subsequent, it seeks to get the first cancelled as well.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462814 · Replies: 14 · Views: 126

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 20:57


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I'm not sure if the last has ever been tested but it ought to be.

If a PCN is on a vehicle and there is no change to position etc, serving a second, third ad infinitum is simply adding to the prescribed penalty each and every time. This impacts the first even though it was lawfully served initially, exactly as if they doubled the penalty with a written demand without this being sanctioned by law.
It is not as though they have no option either, they have the option of removal, that they choose not to use that does not mean they can be creative in serving PCNs willy nilly.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462804 · Replies: 14 · Views: 126

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 19:41


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I reckon three grounds to challenge on.

Contravention did not Occur.
The vehicle was not parked adjacent to the part of the kerb lowered to meet the carriageway.
Your CEO photos clearly show this, especially the one looking past the car to the dropped kerb on the opposite footway, it can be clearly seen that all the lowered portion is clear.
While it is partly adjacent to the sloping bit, this has been found many times by adjudicators to not be the relevant part of the dropped kerb.
The overlap onto the sloping bit is minor anyway and should be considered de minimis even if the council do not agree with the above.

Continuous Contravention.
The vehicle was not moved from its position after first being parked. Your CEO photos confirm this.
It is a basic tenet of English law that no person can be punished more then once for the same offence.
The offence cited in this case occurs when the vehicle is first parked, it only happens once. There is no magic reset at midnight to allow a second PCN to be served, it is one contravention and only one. All PCNs after the first must be cancelled due to this.

The Penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.
By serving more then one PCN for the same offence, the CEO seeks to impose a greater penalty then that allowed.
In doing so, they satisfy the ground that is embodied within the Appeals Regulations and required to be on every Notice to Owner.
This ground being satisfied, all PCNs must be cancelled.


Send the same for each PCN
List all PCN numbers on the top.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462771 · Replies: 14 · Views: 126

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 19:06


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Was the vehicle moved between PCNs ??
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462766 · Replies: 14 · Views: 126

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 17:08


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QUOTE (mitina1990 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 16:49) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 16:40) *
post the PCN as well redact only reg and pcn number and a GSV link

ALL 5 OF THEM ??

One at least.

Judging by those pictures, no contravention but would like to have a look on streetview.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462748 · Replies: 14 · Views: 126

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 16:20


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Can I look at some long shots.

Who is the registered keeper, you or motability?

You say you ended up with a Charge certificate but no original NTO.
Then waited for OfR and got the lot reset by TEC.
Then received a new NTO.
Can you put dates for each of the above please?

Charge Certificate dated ?
TEC Decision Dated?
New NTO Dated ?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462736 · Replies: 23 · Views: 578

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 14:06


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 14:01) *
........that's two references to 68 pages in two threads in two days, is this an inside joke no one's let me in on?


You are in on it but may have missed it.
The other thread, post 19, adjournment letter No2... "and 68 or so other pages"



  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462719 · Replies: 47 · Views: 883

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 13:55


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 13:43) *
I would reword this slightly:

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 13:38) *
The council state within the NOR that they cannot ascertain the reason for the stop or even if the vehicle was impeded in any way and hence cannot accept my reason. The starting point is that the enforcement authority must prove the contravention to the civil standard, the appellant does not have to prove anything. Therefore a burden of proof rests on the council to show that it is more likely than not that the vehicle stopped because of the presence of stationary vehicles: on the respondent's own interpretation of the evidence this evidential burden cannot be discharged, therefore the appeal must be allowed.



No argument, saying the same thing, my version just kept it a little more in tune with my previous draft is all, yours is more pointed towards the legal aspects.
If this was going to be on papers I would be more pointed on the legal aspects, as it is a hearing and OP can open their trap and "refresh the adjudicator's memory" I would prefer to get the simplistic over on papers.


No particular worries either way but would caution against loading this one up so it becomes a morass (68 pages eeeks) that loses immediate comprehension.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462716 · Replies: 47 · Views: 883

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 13:49


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I can see where you are coming from HCA but disagree.

Wrong house number means that the bailiffs cannot enforce at a different address but does not mean it cannot be changed, the warrant re issued.
And no guarantee that council or bailiffs will reset to where they ought to be.

If the warrant is correct in all other aspects one has to assume that a PCN has been served as well as all the remaining statutory notices.
Not correctly served but certainly sent.
This has to be addressed, dare I say must be addressed with TEC.
Trying to sort it via council, bailiffs and or motability is going out of process.

Check information, especially what address Motability has on record but IMO do not stray from process, we have seen the results of that and they are not pretty.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462713 · Replies: 14 · Views: 208

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 13:38


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I thnk that should be added into my draft.... again not laboured but simple.....

The council state within the NOR that they cannot ascertain the reason for the stop or even if the vehicle was impeded in any way and hence cannot accept my reason.
I ask that the adjudicator supports my contention that it is only if the council can ascertain that the reason to stop is due to stationary vehicles can they enforce and that lack of such certainty is actually reason that the PCN should be cancelled.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462707 · Replies: 47 · Views: 883

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 12:36


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QUOTE (itsleo @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 12:29) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 12:24) *
You can't appeal the charge certificate. is the name and address correct and as per your V5C if you are the registered keeper?

If so it's a matter of waiting for the order of (debt) recovery and then you can automatically get the process reset to the PCN, but you need to keep an eye on when the debt is registered at the traffic enforcement centre as you do not want this order to go astray.



Yes its correct.

do you think me sending a letter letting them know that I didn't receive the first letter and that I'm willing to pay my £65 PCN could potentially reset it to a PCN?



Not with Newham, some councils maybe but not Newham.


NExt notice will be an Order for Recovery. This will include a Statutory Declaration that you can fill in and send to a place called TEC (all details and instructions on the form)
If you have not got this within a month of the date of the CC, get straight back to us.
Important that you do not miss this, there is a deadline and you will be in a world of financial pain if you miss them.
One month, max.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462681 · Replies: 7 · Views: 80

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 12:15


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QUOTE (turkontour7 @ Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 12:05) *
The reply is from the Council, Swansea Council


Hmmm, not a contractor in the loop then.

All the council's own work not a contractor getting inventive.


I'm going thought their policies and TROs at present...back later, these muppets must be named and shamed.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462661 · Replies: 35 · Views: 589

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 12:12


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They cannot force access with a locksmith, most they can do is enter through an open door or window.
Keep that letter, may be useful for a complaint but this is not the time.

There is enough here to make me think you should be able to reset this to PCN stage, can't guarantee but there is a system.

Basic is that the house number is wrong.
Motability car so original PCN would have gone to them and they would have nominated FIL giving his details.
Check with Motability ASAP what address they hold for FIL ??
Today if possible plus check paperwork you have that shows address of record.
An error, either at Motability or at Council led to the required notices being sent to an incorrect address.
This is not FIL's error but simply an unfortunate breakdown within the system and one which procedures are in place to correct.
Don't suppose Marston left you with a copy of the warrant ??
No matter if not TEC has that information.

From that you can download forms from Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) who deal with this.
We will link you to correct forms.
One is a Statutory Declaration. Tick the box saying no Notice to Owner...PCN received. Sign it, witnessed at local court, make sure details such as address, name and PCN number are right...ready for sending.
Second is an Out of Time request. This is a request for the court (TEC) to accept the SD even though it is out of time.
It must give reasons for the delay, it must not include anything not relevant to that.
Again we can help you draft something.
Council can object but if we word it right, they may not or indeed TEC may accept even if council object.
We can but try.


Once you send the forms to TEC, they act quite fast, same day if the forms are early enough, next day certainly.
That will put bailiffs back on leash and everything on hold while TEC make a decision.
Unless you know a commissioner of oaths that is open later today or tomorrow, local court on Monday will be best bet for the witness signature.


I'll go and find some forms for you now.....edit, Neil has pointed you to them.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462657 · Replies: 14 · Views: 208

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:39


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Let's see the PCN anyway, just in case.
Double check the registration number is correct.
Leave in times and location.

I'm seeing nothing else at the moment, others may spot something.

Photos do not have to link sign to bay or vehicle, the council only have to say they were all there.
You will need to show why they weren't if they weren't.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462626 · Replies: 6 · Views: 83

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:23


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http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117478

I link to the above as it is a similar case within England.
Principles discussed are all the same.
There is specific Welsh legislation that refers where you are so don't get carried away with lifting any letter from that link.

Here is the Welsh legislation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2000/178...gulation/8/made
The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (Wales) Regulations 2000
Section 8 applies on yellow lines/waiting restrictions.
There is no caveat "except within 10m of a corner" or anything similar.

They are enforcing on something which they cannot, their own traffic Order cannot allow then to unless they are ignoring the legislation that governs traffic orders in Wales.
And they cannot enforce on guidance only the law.

TBH, the police can, unnecessary obstruction or even dangerous parking (which is worth 3 points) but within the council's remit, the council can do diddly squat.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462625 · Replies: 35 · Views: 589

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:44


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So you transfer ownership of a valuable item on a handshake, no paperwork ?
If so, will the garage provide a statement that they took the car over on date ????

Hindsight and obviously closing the stable door after the horse has not only bolted but come back with some friends to burn the stable down....
If you transfer a vehicle you can inform DVLA of change of keeper via the tinternet. Immediate automated response. That is far and away more certain then you signing the V5 transfer and hoping that the garage will send it off and that it will not get lost in post.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462621 · Replies: 41 · Views: 437

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:31


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The CEO photos show what looks like a clear single yellow and kerb blip by the car.
And a yellow plate on the sign.
Historical photos would be accepted as evidence of what the sign says unless you can show different.

Not looking good I am afraid, best post the whole PCN and a streetview location so we can see if we can spot anything to help.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462619 · Replies: 6 · Views: 83

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