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Mobile Vans - LTi 20-20 Speedscope, The most commonly used mobile speed camera
Mika
post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 09:14
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This link will take you to a page which explains the information that appears on the LTi 20-20 Lastec traffic videos.

UPDATE 21st January 2009

Motorist beats 98mph charge

UPDATE 7th February 2007

MCN has the following.

QUOTE
Frank Garratt admitted the speed meter can make a host of errors including ‘slip’ error.


UPDATE 12th September

BBC Inside Out broadcast a follow-up program about the accuracy of the LTi 20-20 and a RealPlayer video of the relevant part of the programme is available for download here (38Mb).

There is a lower resolution WMV file available here. (3.68Mb)

There is also an article about this program on the BBC Inside Out Website.

Inside Out – BBC South West: Monday February 28, 2005:

NOTE A 16Mb RealPlayer clip from the programme, can be downloaded from this link.

“Mobile speed cameras are increasingly being used by the police to enforce speed limits, but how accurate are they?

We look at these cameras and see if their claims of accuracy are themselves accurate.

You may also find this recent Wiltshire case of interest - the Crown dropped the charge, rather than disclosing the traffic video.

Watch the video in this case carefully and decide for yourself. Did the motorcycle decelerate from 107 mph to 87 mph, without braking?

You may also find this US case of interest – “Laser Loses a Legal Test

We can also provide the recording as a SVCD, which will play in most DVD players.

The result of the case was as follows:

Guilty of travelling at 107 mph

Disqualified from driving for 28 days

£500 fine and £1000 costs - the prosecution asked for £2000 costs.

The defendant couldn't afford to go to appeal and in any case, at the time, Mr Garrett was the only recognised "expert" on the LTi 20/20 in this country. That may have changed now. icon_wink.gif


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post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 09:14
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g_attrill
post Tue, 23 Aug 2005 - 19:56
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QUOTE (andy_foster)
And is the distance displayed measured at the start, middle or end of the 1/3sec burst?

The patent says it's the midpoint:

d = c/2 * (sum(yi)/n

...where n= number of samples, yi = flight time for ith pulse, c = speed of light.


Gareth


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blackdouglas
post Tue, 30 Aug 2005 - 10:05
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QUOTE (g_attrill)
The patent says it's the midpoint:

d = c/2 * (sum(yi)/n

...where n= number of samples, yi = flight time for ith pulse, c = speed of light.

Gareth


Careful. This is not the midpoint. It is, effectively, the average of the calculated distances. This is the midpoint, if, and only if, the target is travelling at a constant speed.
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T20Driver
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 15:54
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I've got a few questions .... sorry if there's answers elsewhere, I have trawled but can't find them ...

Is there a pulse to be detected as the scope is being swung from vehicle to vehicle prior to any attempt to target a specific vehicle ?

Indeed, is there something that has to be done by the operator to specifically target/get the speed of a vehicle, or is it all automatic ie the operator simply points at a vehicle at the scope does the rest ie there is no trigger pulling/ button pressing ?

I've seen somewhere that the dodgyscopes take 1/3 sec to 'lock on' .... at what distance and under what condition is this ? Does this mean that there is a pulse to be detected during this (short) 'aquiring' time and that as soon as lock on is achieved, you're knicked if over the limit ?

Does it say anywhere (Type Approval for eg) the max distance at which these units can be used for speed detection in a prosecution ?

I also read somewhere that the speed quoted on any NIP is the 3rd reading .... What is the interval between the readings ... or is this misinformation ? Perhaps a better question is ... how do the scamerati determine the speed to place on the NIP ?

The purpose of my questions is to understand better whether there is any point in purchasing a laser detector.

If my understanding is correct (ie I might if I am lucky have 1/3 of a sec to re-act to a laser detection before being done) then I am not sure of their usefulness as I'm pretty sure I'd only be able to mentally process the fact that I've been targeted and start moving my foot off the accelerator to the brake in 1/3 sec. I'm certainly not sure how much I'd have hit the brakes and scrubbed off further speed in that time. However, if (for example) I'd be able to detect the laser at 1000ft plus and they're readings are inadmissable over 1000ft then I can perhaps see a point ... although feet do go past pretty quickly .. whatever the speed.

Any input appreciated.
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Clear Skies
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 16:21
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QUOTE (T20Driver)
Does it say anywhere (Type Approval for eg) the max distance at which these units can be used for speed detection in a prosecution ?

.


I am not sure where u are going with your questions,

but believe it's approved for quite a long distance say 1000 m, but when they calibrate  them, they only ever test them on three distances, and I think they are 50.75 and 100 m... which to an uneducated moron like myself seems like complete b*ll*cks.


no idea if this rough info  is of any use to you , in your quest..

rgds
bill


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g_attrill
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 16:49
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QUOTE (T20Driver)
Is there a pulse to be detected as the scope is being swung from vehicle to vehicle prior to any attempt to target a specific vehicle ?


QUOTE (T20Driver)
Indeed, is there something that has to be done by the operator to specifically target/get the speed of a vehicle, or is it all automatic ie the operator simply points at a vehicle at the scope does the rest ie there is no trigger pulling/ button pressing ?

The operator needs to press the trigger to commence the speed reading.


QUOTE (T20Driver)
I've seen somewhere that the dodgyscopes take 1/3 sec to 'lock on' .... at what distance and under what condition is this ? Does this mean that there is a pulse to be detected during this (short) 'aquiring' time and that as soon as lock on is achieved, you're knicked if over the limit ?

The time the device takes to produce a reading is 0.3sec. A detector will sound an alarm when this pulse is detected, so by the time the alarm goes off it is way way too late to take evasive action.

QUOTE (T20Driver)
Does it say anywhere (Type Approval for eg) the max distance at which these units can be used for speed detection in a prosecution ?

Not that I am aware.


QUOTE (T20Driver)
I also read somewhere that the speed quoted on any NIP is the 3rd reading .... What is the interval between the readings ... or is this misinformation ? Perhaps a better question is ... how do the scamerati determine the speed to place on the NIP ?

I've not heard of this, the interval between reading can be as quick as the operator can press the button.

QUOTE (T20Driver)
The purpose of my questions is to understand better whether there is any point in purchasing a laser detector.

Laser detectors are useful to a point. It is quite common for an error code to be produced on a laser device and for the operator to take several readings before a valid speed is produced.

I haven't had chance to play with a detector and see what it's capabilities are, but it is also possible that one might detect the "overspill" where an operator is targetting a vehicle in front.

Unfortunately most installers seem to be pretty crap. I went with my boss to a local dealer and he showed us his car. The sensor was on the rear view mirror but ABOVE the tint line on the windscreen. I queried whether this would adversely affect the operation and his reply was "a Nokia phone on IR sets it off" while holding his phone up to the windscreen.  I have no idea how he thought this had any bearing on an LTI 20:20 being fired at it from 500m!

(We were also put off by general attitude and talking about he would "rip off the dash" and "you don't want to be here when it's installed"). Not the sort of words you want use in relation to a £60k Italian sports car!)

Gareth


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the fast lane
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 21:28
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QUOTE (T20Driver)
The purpose of my questions is to understand better whether there is any point in purchasing a laser detector.

The only valid purpose of a laser detector is to indicate to you that your car is being subjected to infra-red radiation.  To put it another way, to indicate when you have had your speed measured.
Even if it took 2 or 3 seconds to measure the average speed of your car you are very unlikely to be able to reduce your vehicle speed a significant amount.  In 0.3 seconds, the time it takes for the most popular laser speed measuring device to acquire your speed, you have no chance of changing your speed after the alarm in time to make a difference to the measured speed.
Ask any laser detector sales person "What should I do when I get an alarm to prevent my speed being measured within one second"?  If the answer is anything other than NOTHING, then the salesperson is a liar.

You could always use it to note if your speed is over the speed limit when it goes off, that way you will know when to expect a letter in the post.

Save your money and buy some wax for your Italian job.
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Insider
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 21:50
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Of course, Laser Jammers deal with the problem of detecting and evading..  :wink:


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jeffreyarcher
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 22:38
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QUOTE (Insider)
Of course, Laser Jammers deal with the problem of detecting and evading..  icon_wink.gif

That may bring you more serious legal problems, however.
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Insider
post Mon, 5 Sep 2005 - 22:44
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QUOTE
That may bring you more serious legal problems, however.


True, however I'm not doing so bad  :lol:


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anton
post Tue, 6 Sep 2005 - 03:39
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reminder... next monday BBC inside-out are re-visiting this news story on 12th of September 2005 7:30 pm in the SW region
you can view BBCsw on channel 957 on sky sat dish

more info will apear on thier web site http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/s.../week_one.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/s.../week_two.shtml

edited to change it to SW


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blackdouglas
post Tue, 6 Sep 2005 - 17:34
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I'm not sure you've got this quite right.

I think it will be on in the *South West* and *London* regions on 12 September 2005. Possibly also the *South* region.

QUOTE (anton)
reminder... next monday BBC inside-out are re-visiting this news story on 12th of September 2005 7:30 pm in the W region and a week later in other regions.

you can view BBCw on channel 957 on sky sat dish

more info will apear on thier web site http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/west/series.../week_one.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/west/series8/week_two.shtml
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anton
post Tue, 6 Sep 2005 - 19:59
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ok I was chanel hopping I got the number right just the name thats wrong

BBC REGIONS
941 BBC1 Scotland
942 BBC1 Wales
943 BBC1 Northern Ireland
944 BBC1 London
945 BBC1 North East & Cumbria
946 BBC1 Yorkshire
947 BBC1 East Yorkshire & Lincolnshire
948 BBC1 North West
949 BBC1 West Midlands
950 BBC1 East Midlands
951 BBC1 East (East
952 BBC1 East (West)
953 BBC1 South East
954 BBC1 South
955 BBC1 South
956 BBC1 West
957 BBC1 South West 7:30 pm monday
958 BBC1 Channel Islands (from the autumn)
959 BBC2 England
960 BBC2 Scotland
961 BBC2 Wales
962 BBC2 Northern Ireland


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anton
post Mon, 12 Sep 2005 - 22:06
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summery of program here

QUOTE
Julian Hewitt
The camera has been rigorously tested by the home office as part of the type approval process. This applies to all similar equipment such as breathalysers. If exhaustive testing has already been done and the equipment has been found to be accurate there is no reason to give it to any self appointed expert with an axe to grind to test again. A good journalist will always be able to find some one from the modern day equivalent of the flat earth society to oppose the majority view but the BBC should have the integrity to present a balanced picture based on the facts rather than take the tabloid route of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story.
Did Julian Hewit not declare he was press spoksperson from Hants Scammers?


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Mika
post Tue, 13 Sep 2005 - 10:09
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UPDATE 13th September

BBC Inside Out broadcast a follow-up program about the accuracy of the LTi 20-20 and a RealPlayer video of the relevant part of the programme is available for download here (38Mb).

There is a lower resolution WMV file available here. (3.68Mb)

There is also an article about this program on the BBC Inside Out Website.


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Rallyman72
post Wed, 14 Sep 2005 - 14:01
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I have seen Cambs using the LTI a bit recently on the A1 at Alconbury. Up until yesterday always hand held but braced on an open patrol car door nearest to traffic - yesterday the LTI was mounted on a tripod to the nearside (i.e. side furthest away from traffic) of the patrol car.

I wonder if the recent BBC programme has prompted a change of instructions for using these.
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Quattro
post Wed, 14 Sep 2005 - 21:55
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QUOTE
You could always use it to note if your speed is over the speed limit when it goes off, that way you will know when to expect a letter in the post.


or

You could always use it to note if your speed is over the speed limit when it goes off, that way you will know if the scammers are lying when you get a letter in the post.

Rule #1 - scammers lie
Rule #2 - if in doubt, refer to rule #1.
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 15 Sep 2005 - 01:07
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QUOTE (Rallyman72)
I have seen Cambs using the LTI a bit recently on the A1 at Alconbury. Up until yesterday always hand held but braced on an open patrol car door nearest to traffic - yesterday the LTI was mounted on a tripod to the nearside (i.e. side furthest away from traffic) of the patrol car.

I wonder if the recent BBC programme has prompted a change of instructions for using these.

Why don't you ask them?
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anton
post Sat, 1 Oct 2005 - 11:35
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BBC inside out program is going out in south region this monday it might make the rest of the network too


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REG OLIVER
post Thu, 17 Nov 2005 - 11:51
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Regarding ACPO Code of Conduct. If anyone cares to read the English dictionary they will find that Code is defined as LAW and as such should be implimented by those who operate such codes. They are only used when it suites the Police but when quoted by others are only guidelines. Even if they are guidelines they should be adhered too and implimented and the Police taken to task over these guidelines. What good for the goose is also good for the gander and the Police should not be above the law,regulations or even guidelines. R Oliver
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Dakota
post Thu, 17 Nov 2005 - 13:04
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Nice try but it doesn't work like that. Not only do they ignore the ACPO guidelines they "bend" the law to suit themselves. In one recent case on here, a district judge was doing the prosecuters job for them. Hardly justice is it?
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