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Greenwich Single Yellow, Code 01
Tony Prince
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 22:41
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Hi, I've been issued a pcn code 01, having parked on a single yellow on a Sunday around 3pm.

This was on King William walk, Greenwich.

Is there any grounds for appeal?



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post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 22:41
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 22:42
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Post a link to the location on Google Street View, and the council pics. Use an external site like imgur.com or flickr


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 08:49
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a stupidly big CPZ but unfortunately not unusual.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4813933,-...3312!8i6656

signs are in place at the A206 as above, but you cannot enter from that direction. I can see none on GSV at The Avenue near St Marys gate where the CPZ starts in a direction you can drive.

https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/site/xfp/...amp;language=en

Try and check it out



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Tony Prince
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 12:03
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Thanks PMB.

The exact location is marked in red:



Zone wise as per the marker.

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Tony Prince
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 17:49
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...and so how do I go about appealing. Can I base my appeal on insufficient cpz signage?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 19:09
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QUOTE (Tony Prince @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 18:49) *
...and so how do I go about appealing. Can I base my appeal on insufficient cpz signage?


Can you confirm the absence of the CPZ signs


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Tony Prince
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:09) *
QUOTE (Tony Prince @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 18:49) *
...and so how do I go about appealing. Can I base my appeal on insufficient cpz signage?


Can you confirm the absence of the CPZ signs


To be honest, I can't recall seeing any CPZ signage, around the junction with Nevada St. and King William Walk, the route I took to park.
However according to GSV, CPZ signs are present, and can be seen if travelling up the Avenue, just outside Queen Marys Gate, which seems to be closed to vehicles on Sundays.

[b]CPZ signs present November 2017

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4794135,-...3312!8i6656


[b]CPZ Signs not present May 2017

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.47951,-0....3312!8i6656
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Tony Prince
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 19:35
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Following my informal appeal:

I wish to appeal the pcn I received, because I believe it has been wrongfully issued.
There was no signage indicating that king william walk where the vehicle is alleged to have been parked was in a controlled zone. There is signage indicating entry to a CPZ but can only be seen if you're travelling along the avenue toward king william walk, and not from the nevada st. and king william walk junction. In addition if the car was parked where indicated it seems to have posed no risk to pedestrians or other road users. To this end I would kindly like to request the pcn be cancelled. the initial post,


Greenwich have finally sent through the informal rejection:

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 19:47
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No consideration of the lack of signs, so do you pay the discount or wait for the NTO?


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Tony Prince
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 20:19
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 20:47) *
No consideration of the lack of signs, so do you pay the discount or wait for the NTO?


At this stage, what is the likelihood of a formal appeal being successful?
I very recently had to pay the full pcn, in similar circumstances (loading bay, not single yellow), following a unsuccessful appeal to Tribunal.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 20:42
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I would pay the discount. Greenwich won't give way and you'll just waste time and money.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 21:44
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 21:42) *
I would pay the discount. Greenwich won't give way and you'll just waste time and money.


With the signs in place you are looking to technicalities only, a fail to consider at informal stage could well be passed over if it is corrected at formal so perhaps discount is best


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Tony Prince
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 13:22
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This appeal was allowed, the pcn appears to have been issued in similar circumstances.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t66334.html

This post has been edited by Tony Prince: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 13:33
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peterguk
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 13:37
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QUOTE (Tony Prince @ Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 14:22) *
This appeal was allowed, the pcn appears to have been issued in similar circumstances.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t66334.html


That doesn't mean to say yours will succeed too.

Did you ever check for missing CPZ signs as asked earlier in the thread?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 13:37


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Tony Prince
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 14:41
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 14:37) *
QUOTE (Tony Prince @ Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 14:22) *
This appeal was allowed, the pcn appears to have been issued in similar circumstances.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t66334.html


That doesn't mean to say yours will succeed too.

Did you ever check for missing CPZ signs as asked earlier in the thread?


Yes I appreciate that cases may be allowed based on individual merit, and when grounds for an appeal actually exist.
I did use GSV to check the presence of CPZ signs, as written in my reply, but only in the vicinity where the car was parked.
Beyond that, is it a matter of physically checking CPZ signs exist at each entry to the zone, and taking photos to submit?
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peterguk
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 14:46
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QUOTE (Tony Prince @ Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 15:41) *
Beyond that, is it a matter of physically checking CPZ signs exist at each entry to the zone, and taking photos to submit?

Yes! If you can show you entered the CPZ without passing a CPZ sign, or passed a sign that was unreadable, e,g, had been turned away from drivers, then your case is strengthened considerably. If the signage is complete and compliant, and you simply missed them or didn't see them then in terms of signage you likely have no defence.


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stamfordman
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 15:39
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Yes, if you want to go on you'll need to do what the OP in the other thread did.

But I don't think the argument about the size of the zone will have as much weight now - that thread was 7 years' ago and CPZs are much more embedded now in practice. But signage will always be an issue.

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cp8759
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 15:57
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QUOTE (Tony Prince @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 21:19) *
At this stage, what is the likelihood of a formal appeal being successful?

Who knows? You need to go and see for yourself what the situation with the signage is. If the CPZ zone sign that you would have passed is missing, you will almost certainly win, if it's there and you just didn't see it, you will almost certainly lose. There's not much else to say to be honest.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 19:14
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And the date of their letter is???????????

At present you should pay the discount, you are embarked on a hopeless appeal given that by your admission you have no idea whether signs were in place or not.

And even if you found, as if rewriting history, that there is a route into the zone whose entry is not guarded by 2 compliant signs in August, how would this help you as regards a contravention 3 months ago?
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