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Can I be prosecuted when the NIP arrived after 17 days?
seylectric
post Wed, 23 Apr 2003 - 21:20
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I have just been caught speeding by a fixed Gatso camera. I have just received in the post the Notice of Intended Prosecution. It is 17 days since the offence.

Since I did not recieve the NIP within 14 days can I still be prosecuted?
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post Wed, 23 Apr 2003 - 21:20
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Beggarall
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 15:05
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Hi
Bringing this to the top. I have a similar problem except the NIP sent to me was dated 10 March 2004 and the alleged offence (54 in a 40) was on 17 December 2003 (84 days beforehand). I am the registerd keeper etc and I will certainly reply using the contents of the letter at the beginning of the thread .... but what do I do with the S172? Do I just send it back uncompleted? or hold it back till the end of the 28 days (and then what?) do I admit to being the driver (it is likely that I was but others could have been driving - do you remember exactly what you were doing 3 months ago?)
I am finding this unbelievably stressful and time consuming and I have lots of better things I could be doing. Deep inside I just wonder whether copping the plea and accepting the fine and points (licence curently clean) isn't going to be the easiest way out....however, I am quite insensed and prepared to fight it provided I have a good chance of winning. Any advice will be gratefullly recieved.
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Blackbird
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 17:49
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Beggarall

You have obviously read this thread so I will not go over 'old' ground.
You said
QUOTE
I am the registerd keeper etc
Are you happy that you know no reason why the partnership could not get the NIP to you on time ? Change of address perhaps? If there are no reasons that you can think of, IMO you are on very good ground.
The only down side is that you have to 'go through the process' in other words
Send in the NIP completed and signed.
Turn down the 'opportunity' to pay £60 fixed penalty.
Ask to be heard in court and plead NOT GUILTY.

If you take this route, all the advice that you will need will be available on this site.

QUOTE
I am finding this unbelievably stressful and time consuming and I have lots of better things I could be doing. Deep inside I just wonder whether copping the plea and accepting the fine and points (licence curently clean) isn't going to be the easiest way out....


Fully appreciate the stress but rest assured you will feel a whole lot better knowing that you are in command of the situation.
The final decision is yours but WHY cop the fine and points when you don't need to? IMO you should always fight the first NIP - if you don't, the potential for license loss in the future is only a couple of steps away.


Anybody else think of an easier route?

Best Regards


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viper
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 18:12
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Check the postmark on the envelope that's basically your answer!
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Beggarall
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 19:24
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Thanks for your quick replies. I know of no good reason why the NIP should have been delayed - the car was registered in my name on 25 July 2003 and the DVLA sent me documents to re-tax the vehicle in January. Unfortunately I did not keep the envelope but it is the actual date on the NIP that reads 10 March 2003 and I received it yesterday (12 Mar). I had been wondering whether to just send the "out of time" letter and hold onto the S172 for now (or even just sending it back without writing anything on it). Any other thoughts?
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Blackbird
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 19:49
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Good news that there appears to be no reason for the delay.
The reason that I suggested what might be viewed as a 'long way round' is you can be certain (justice permitting) that it will be dismissed the moment that it hits court - and you can claim back your expenses!
The out of time letter may well work - as it should do - but it may just set them on another tack.
On the subject of the S172, what have you got to loose in sending it in signed? The demand for information is separate from the alleged speeding offence - the last thing that you want is for them to start proceedings for non supply of information! (Could of course change on Tues but that is another story)

Just adding this section in as an edit.
Is there a possibility that this is actually the second NIP? Some areas send out a duplicate NIP and letter as a chase up prior to taking court action!
A letter that I have seen even says you have 28 days from the date of the offence to supply the information - which is obviously 'impractical' if this follow up NIP is sent out three or four months after the alleged offence. If the first one never arrived, the later NIP would appear to be the first!
Is there any indication that they view this as a 'continuation' of correspondence?
What area are you in?
Does anybody else have past experience in this area?

Sorry if I appear to have muddied the waters, but I always like to cover all eventualities.

Best Regards


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jeffreyarcher
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 23:41
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QUOTE (Blackbird)
On the subject of the S172, what have you got to loose in sending it in signed? The demand for information is separate from the alleged speeding offence - the last thing that you want is for them to start proceedings for non supply of information! (Could of course change on Tues but that is another story)

What he has to lose is that if there does turn out to be a good reason for the delay, he has lost the opportunity to go 'unsigned' if he wishes.
bggrrffccd (or something like that!) posted such a scenario late last year.
Since there is over 3 weeks until day 28, I see no reason not to send the 'out of time' letter without the signed NIP. Should no reply have been received by about day 26, there is nothing to stop Beggarall then sending in the NIP, signed or unsigned, depending on the situation in Idris's case, or not knowing the driver (sub-section (4)) as appropriate.
QUOTE (Blackbird)
Is there a possibility that this is actually the second NIP? Some areas send out a duplicate NIP <...>

In the case of Lothian & Borders, at least from the posts in here, the 'normal' procedure seems to be to send an 'out of time' NIP and alledge that it is a 'reminder'. icon_evil.gif
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Blackbird
post Sun, 14 Mar 2004 - 08:33
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Thanks jeffreyarcher for your words of wisdom laugh.gif I think we are coming from the same direction here.
you said
QUOTE
In the case of Lothian & Borders, at least from the posts in here, the 'normal' procedure seems to be to send an 'out of time' NIP and alledge that it is a 'reminder'.
this is just the scenario that I was trying to avoid. Would the sending out of the 'out of time letter' not alert the scammers that Beggarall knew that they had served an invalid NIP and therefore divert them down the 'it was a reminder' route?
Is it possible to officially find out and document that this is the first NIP? Anybody know?
you also said
QUOTE
What he has to lose is that if there does turn out to be a good reason for the delay, he has lost the opportunity to go 'unsigned' if he wishes.

Fully appreciate that - hence the reason that I was ensuring that there was no 'normal' reason for delay.

Hope this 'discussion' is of some use Beggarall, as you can see from jeffreyarchers great knowledge and post, you cannot trust the scammers - they will do anything to get the cash.

Best Regards


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Beggarall
post Sun, 14 Mar 2004 - 12:20
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Thanks again. I am still processing all the information. There is nothing on the NIP to say that it is a duplicate or a second copy. I suppose my first instinct was to send the RAC letter and return the NIP and S172 untouched but on reflection it may be better to sign S172 but just to acknowledge that I am the registered keeper and not to cross any boxes to say who was driving and then add a bit at the end (in part 6) that the NIP was time expired and refer them to the letter.
I suppose there is no great rush to do anything - there are still nearly 3 weeks before the 28 day deadline but by nature I am one who likes to have these matters dealt with and out of the way quickly. I will value any other input. How might the outcome of the Idris case affect this?
Best wishes to all for an excellent forum
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Blackbird
post Sun, 14 Mar 2004 - 12:59
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Hopefully the messages from jeffreyarcher and myself made things as clear as is possible. Just to take your points one by one
QUOTE
There is nothing on the NIP to say that it is a duplicate or a second copy.
These 'second' NIP's can just be a re-send of the original docs i.e not noted duplicate or second so beware (see jeffreyarcher comment on Borders and Lothian)

If you just send in the 'out of time' letter now and hold onto the S172 (bearing in mind that there are 3 weeks remaining) there are 2 possible outcomes
Case dropped laugh.gif
It is alleged that this is a second NIP :x

In either case you still have the option of going 'unsigned'.

If you do send the 'out of time letter' take the expensive option (can never remember the name - see elsewhere on this site) so you can ensure that it has been delivered.

QUOTE
How might the outcome of the Idris case affect this?

Not really relevant to you at this stage in the process. Simply for those that have already gone down the 'unsigned' route, if he wins they win. If he looses they loose. As Mika has posted elsewhere, will the case be fully heard and dealt with on Tuesday - don't hold your breath.

Best Regards


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DW190
post Sun, 14 Mar 2004 - 13:38
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QUOTE
If you do send the 'out of time letter' take the expensive option
QUOTE
(can never remember the name - see elsewhere on this site)
so you can ensure that it has been delivered.


ROYAL MAIL SPECIAL DELIVERY

dw
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Blackbird
post Sun, 14 Mar 2004 - 13:49
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Cheers DW190.


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bassanclan
post Fri, 26 Mar 2004 - 15:54
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Mrs Jennifer Margaret Bassan

If I receive a second NIP do I have 28 days from that date to return it?

1st came 19th Feb - returned unsigned - Yorke compliant

17th March original NIP returned saying please sign it. Didn't do anything

Obviously there has been the Idris case, so unsigned is no longer a defence

25th March 2nd NIP received (for original offence) - so I still have 28days before I try with the PACE argument?
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Beggarall
post Thu, 22 Apr 2004 - 22:16
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Bringing this back to the top. I sent the RAC letter and had a reply saying the NIP had been sent to a previous keeper - I am contesting this - see [forum link] but also requested photos as I could not remember who was driving. The pictures dont help - shows my car from the back with "timeout" written underneath. Send back a signed S172 giving my details and adding in the box at the bottom that I had named myself as being the "most likely" driver.
I have now had a second NIP stating that there had been "no satisfactory response leading to the identity of the driver" and would I kindly complete (another) S172 "within 14 days to avoid any unnecessary court proceedings".
I have already send them a signed form - what should I do now? Presumably they do not like my annotation of the original? Help as ever much appreciated.
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 22 Apr 2004 - 22:40
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QUOTE (Beggarall)
Send back a signed S172 giving my details and adding in the box at the bottom that I had named myself as being the "most likely" driver.
I have now had a second NIP stating that there had been "no satisfactory response leading to the identity of the driver" and would I kindly complete (another) S172 "within 14 days to avoid any unnecessary court proceedings".
I have already send them a signed form - what should I do now? Presumably they do not like my annotation of the original? Help as ever much appreciated.

Of course they don't. It's no good to prosecute you. The driver has to admit that it was him.
If you are going to continue down that road, you should read the 'unsure of driver' sticky, and it is likely that you will be summonsed.
Note that even if you eventually show that the original NIP was 'timed out' (> 14 days), that will be unlikely to protect you from a s172 prosecution as there is no time limit on a S172 notice.
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Beggarall
post Thu, 22 Apr 2004 - 23:22
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So presumably best to send an unambiguous "yes it was me" S172? icon_cry.gif
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volvodriver
post Wed, 28 Apr 2004 - 08:06
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I have a ongoing saga of a alleged 38mph in a 30mph limit (obviously I was a 'danger' as it was an wide A road, going through a village at 9am on a sunday morning, the limit had just dropped from 60, so I dropped to less than 40...still obviously a hazard to public safety! So the unmarked camera van got me)

My point is this, I never recieved an original NIP. The first I heard of it was 2 months later with a threatening letter saying they were going to take me to court. I have phoned/written to them four times asking for a copy of the original NIP, dated within 14 days of the alleged offence on it. All they have sent me are new NIP's with the date of printing on it, up to 80 days after the alleged offence.

Does anyone know if the police have to provide a copy of the original NIP to prove date of postage or can they do what they like 'cos we're the police'?

The other strange thing is that on several statements from them they state they have 28 days not 14/17 to send out a NIP, is this right? Has the law changed?

Any advice appreciated.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 28 Apr 2004 - 11:15
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To get an S172 to stick they will need to show evidence of a sent NIP, so that mst be dated, so why they can't send a correctly dated one and EVIDENCE that the original was in time is beyond me..

28 days..Scammers getting mixed up with 28 day reply limit for S172 I think..thats wrong, 14 days still applies!

Simon.
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volvodriver
post Wed, 28 Apr 2004 - 14:14
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Thanks for the info Rookie, I have just spoken to the police and they 'do not have a policy of sending out copies of the original NIP's' although they assure me that a copy will be produced for any court apperance. Sounds like heads they win, tails I lose to me. Also they could kindly lay their hands on a copy of the photos and could describe what I looked like, so not chance of claiming that we didn't know who was driving. Damm.

Looks like I am going to bite the bullet and pay this one. Its not the £60 that galls me, its the probable £100-200 increase in my premiums (I'll have six points in total) I already pay over the odds (nearly £600 for a group 7 car) Do you know (or anyone reading this) of any insurance companies that ignore up to 6 points?

As this stands at the moment, there is no point in the police wasting a stamp and sending out an original NIP, as all they have to produce is a back dated NIP for the court and their 'word' that they they posted it. How can we prove that we never received it at all, let alone within the 17 permissible days? Ho hum.
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Beggarall
post Sun, 9 May 2004 - 19:40
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Continuing the saga. I sent back a completed and signed S172 asking them to note the correspondence about "Time Expired" NIP and my being the "most likely" driver. I had on first receipt of the NIP sent them an abridged version of the RAC letter. Now the offer of a £60/3points FPN has arrived with 28 days to pay up.
How do you assess my chances of winning a court case? I have also the possibility to demand "full disclosure" of video evidence and have already pointed out in letter that the photo they sent had "TIME OUT" printed on it. As I have said before I am finding all this pretty stressful (interestingly others have said much the same on this forum) and a part of me says pay up and end the matter.
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OU812
post Mon, 10 May 2004 - 07:01
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QUOTE (Beggarall)
Continuing the saga. I sent back a completed and signed S172 asking them to note the correspondence about "Time Expired" NIP and my being the "most likely" driver. I had on first receipt of the NIP sent them an abridged version of the RAC letter. Now the offer of a £60/3points FPN has arrived with 28 days to pay up.
How do you assess my chances of winning a court case? I have also the possibility to demand "full disclosure" of video evidence and have already pointed out in letter that the photo they sent had "TIME OUT" printed on it. As I have said before I am finding all this pretty stressful (interestingly others have said much the same on this forum) and a part of me says pay up and end the matter.


You dont get to see the evidence unless you ignore the fixed penalty, go to court, and plead not guilty at the start _then_ you can ask to see the evidence (I say ask because, even though they are legally entitled to it, they dont seem to like to)

The 'timeout' is part of the measuring process. The equipment takes the speed reading and then displays timeout so the operator cannot just then aim at other vehicles and allege they are doing the speed displayed (i.e. the speed that you were doing). Now if the evidence showed that it said timeout all the way through aiming at your car then there is no evidence to support their case - of course you dont get to find this out yet (and I think thats a pretty unlikely scenario but you never know)

However LTi20-20 cases do seem to get dropped alot once the defence asks for full disclosure. This can be largely due to the fact that the operators use it incorrectly but also probably due to the fact that it is unreliable (see Mikas ongoing work on this). Even if you were speeding there is a chance that the case will be dropped or you can get the evidence ruled inadmissable (even more easily if they dont want to disclose it)
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