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Are ULEZ & Dart Charge PCNs enforceable overseas?
nigelbb
post Thu, 24 Nov 2022 - 12:09
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From reading some "Expat in France" Facebook groups it appears that there has recently been a flurry of letters from Euro Parking Collection plc www.epcplc.com sent to vehicle owners in respect of PCNs for French registered vehicles entering the ULEZ or not paying the Dart Charge. These apparently refer to offences from May 2021 onwards. Some people have been sent multiple PCNs amounting to thousands of Euros for entering the ULEZ.

As these are alleged civil debts are they actually enforceable? I found a response from TfL to an FoI request regarding the Congestion Charge which states

QUOTE
However, there is still difficulty in identifying the drivers of non-UK vehicles, principally because no legal framework exists to allow civil debts incurred in a foreign country to be transferred to the court system of the resident country


https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/f...d=FOI-1668-1819

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 - 14:37


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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post Thu, 24 Nov 2022 - 12:09
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cp8759
post Sun, 27 Nov 2022 - 23:27
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 26 Nov 2022 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 26 Nov 2022 - 21:59) *
For all practical purposes however, PCNs are most definitely enforceable abroad.

Other way around?

"not" missing from that.

QUOTE (sidevalve @ Sun, 27 Nov 2022 - 14:37) *
When I went to the pound to collect it the guy there told me Plod had been WELL out of order for pulling him. Still charged me £200+ release fee though...

Have you sued the Met for tortious interference with goods?


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nigelbb
post Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 08:28
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QUOTE (sidevalve @ Sun, 27 Nov 2022 - 16:36) *
Sorry - hadn't seen Page 2 of the linked discussion! It seems he was indeed not supposed to be doing it, although under UK law rather than French law, so I think his insurance would at least still be valid(??). An interesting angle on the 'exemption from import duty' issues is that the car he was driving is completely worthless! If he does it again I must make sure that he does it in a car that is exempt from VED, although as the vehicle still has to be 'taxed' but the 'tax' is zero-rated that presumably brings up a whole new set of issues...


The same holds true for a French resident driving a UK registered car. If it weren't the case there would be no need to re-register a British car when you import it to France.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 27 Nov 2022 - 23:27) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 26 Nov 2022 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 26 Nov 2022 - 21:59) *
For all practical purposes however, PCNs are most definitely enforceable abroad.

Other way around?

"not" missing from that.

QUOTE (sidevalve @ Sun, 27 Nov 2022 - 14:37) *
When I went to the pound to collect it the guy there told me Plod had been WELL out of order for pulling him. Still charged me £200+ release fee though...

Have you sued the Met for tortious interference with goods?


That might not be wise as it would open up a can of worms regarding a UK resident driving a French registered car.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 08:27


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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sidevalve
post Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 09:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 00:27) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 26 Nov 2022 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 26 Nov 2022 - 21:59) *
For all practical purposes however, PCNs are most definitely enforceable abroad.

Other way around?

"not" missing from that.

QUOTE (sidevalve @ Sun, 27 Nov 2022 - 14:37) *
When I went to the pound to collect it the guy there told me Plod had been WELL out of order for pulling him. Still charged me £200+ release fee though...

Have you sued the Met for tortious interference with goods?


See nigelbb's separate response - under the circumstances that doesn't seem to be a brilliant idea! What is funny is that they had us bang to rights, but not for the offence they thought they did!

This post has been edited by sidevalve: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 16:19
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sidevalve
post Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 09:29
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What interests me is how many UK residents driving foreign vehicles have actually been prosecuted for the *correct* offence (Part 2 or Part 7 of the Customs Duty (Personal Reliefs) Order 1970), as detailed in nigelbb's linked thread.

Given the lack of knowledge of both Plod who stopped my son and of the official in charge of the Charlton car pound, I suspect the answer may be the same as the answer to
'How many Orders and /or Judgments from the TEC or any other similar Court resulting from TFL PCN's have been enforced to date in Foreign Jurisdictions?'

I.e. 'None'. But I am not sure I want to push it... biggrin.gif
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 22:42
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QUOTE (sidevalve @ Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 09:07) *
See nigelbb's separate response - under the circumstances that doesn't seem to be a brilliant idea! What is funny is that they had us bang to rights, but not for the offence they thought they did!

No, you just have to play your cards right. Under the criminal law, the statute of limitation for most summary offences is six months, though under VERA this can be extended up to 3 years. The statute of limitations for tortious interference with goods (which is obviously a civil matter) would be six years.

Therefore to be safe, wait for three years from the date of the stop and then send a letter before action. In the meantime of course interest accrues at 8% per annum.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 08:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 22:42) *
In the meantime of course interest accrues at 8% per annum.

Interest on what? Pre-judgment interest is discretionary in most circumstances anyway.


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nigelbb
post Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 11:57
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QUOTE (sidevalve @ Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 09:29) *
What interests me is how many UK residents driving foreign vehicles have actually been prosecuted for the *correct* offence (Part 2 or Part 7 of the Customs Duty (Personal Reliefs) Order 1970), as detailed in nigelbb's linked thread.

Given the lack of knowledge of both Plod who stopped my son and of the official in charge of the Charlton car pound, I suspect the answer may be the same as the answer to
'How many Orders and /or Judgments from the TEC or any other similar Court resulting from TFL PCN's have been enforced to date in Foreign Jurisdictions?'

I.e. 'None'. But I am not sure I want to push it... biggrin.gif


The issue isn't just the none payment of duty. It's the whole exemption from registration, MOT, UK insurance, construction & use regulations etc for a temporary import by a non-resident.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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stamfordman
post Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 18:36
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Article:

https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/Fre...-zone-penalties
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Glacier2
post Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 21:57
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How do EPC get the RK details of foreign cars? Do they go via the police or do they purchase the data?
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cp8759
post Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 08:25
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 08:36) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 22:42) *
In the meantime of course interest accrues at 8% per annum.

Interest on what? Pre-judgment interest is discretionary in most circumstances anyway.

Interest on damages?

Of course interest is discretionary, as are costs. However I've never had problems getting interest for this sort of claim, and if you don't claim it you won't get it so you always want to claim it. With inflation running in double digits, it seems unlikely no award would be made.

QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 21:57) *
How do EPC get the RK details of foreign cars? Do they go via the police or do they purchase the data?

AIUI they have subsidiaries in the countries where they operate that have access to the local equivalent of DVLA.


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Slapdash
post Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 11:26
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QUOTE (sidevalve @ Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 09:29) *
What interests me is how many UK residents driving foreign vehicles have actually been prosecuted for the *correct* offence (Part 2 or Part 7 of the Customs Duty (Personal Reliefs) Order 1970), as detailed in nigelbb's linked thread.

Given the lack of knowledge of both Plod who stopped my son and of the official in charge of the Charlton car pound, I suspect the answer may be the same as the answer to
'How many Orders and /or Judgments from the TEC or any other similar Court resulting from TFL PCN's have been enforced to date in Foreign Jurisdictions?'

I.e. 'None'. But I am not sure I want to push it... biggrin.gif


I know of potentially 1. When I was "resident" in Paris (30 years ago) a colleague was prosecuted for using his French car in the UK. I am not certain it was for the correct offence but he was very surprised to have discovered he shouldn't have been driving it. I am not certain of his residency status and exactly what he was done for. In any event I think he took the pragmatic approach of pleading guilty to avoid the hassle.

I used to use the same vehicle when I had stuff to shift and may well have been vulnerable since I was definitely UK resident.

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 12:50
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sidevalve
post Fri, 2 Dec 2022 - 15:24
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 19:36) *


That's the article that has got the French Facebook people all worked up. I am not however sure how well researched it is - I don't pay a sub and so I can't read it all, but from what I could see it looked like an interview with EPC plc that just gave their side of the story uncritically? Does that sound right, or is there an alternative opinion put?

QUOTE (sidevalve @ Fri, 2 Dec 2022 - 16:13) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 19:36) *


That's the article that has got the French Facebook people all worked up. I am not however sure how well researched it is - I don't pay a sub and so I can't read it all, but from what I could see it looked like an interview with EPC plc that just gave their side of the story uncritically? Does that sound right, or is there an alternative opinion put?


Ah no - I managed to read that article by clearing cookies, and it seems to be a follow-up. I think this is the one that got everyone worked up

https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/Pra...avoid-penalties

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 23:42) *
QUOTE (sidevalve @ Mon, 28 Nov 2022 - 09:07) *
See nigelbb's separate response - under the circumstances that doesn't seem to be a brilliant idea! What is funny is that they had us bang to rights, but not for the offence they thought they did!

No, you just have to play your cards right. Under the criminal law, the statute of limitation for most summary offences is six months, though under VERA this can be extended up to 3 years. The statute of limitations for tortious interference with goods (which is obviously a civil matter) would be six years.

Therefore to be safe, wait for three years from the date of the stop and then send a letter before action. In the meantime of course interest accrues at 8% per annum.


Wow - thanks! I had missed this. It is probably coming up to three years, so I must get stuck in. I am quite passionate about it - I really hate motorists being fleeced (not just me - I hate the structures set up to do it and I detest automated revenue-generating enforcement), so it is probably worth the trouble.
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nigelbb
post Mon, 19 Jun 2023 - 12:19
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 21:57) *
How do EPC get the RK details of foreign cars? Do they go via the police or do they purchase the data?


It turns out that EPC have been using illegitimate means to obtain RK details via Italy & that this has noe been stopped.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023...=share_btn_link


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Glacier2
post Mon, 3 Jul 2023 - 20:46
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QUOTE
Some of the penalties issued by EPC have been posted from an address in Uzbekistan, which is also outside the EU, prompting further questions about data protection.

The mind boggles. I would bin any threats from Uzbekistan. smile.gif
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nigelbb
post Thu, 8 Feb 2024 - 16:24
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More details of how EPC has been illegally accessing driver details.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/202...eu-drivers-data


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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