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040 offence for parking without a clock
LUCYDOG
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:04
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Hello All
I would really like some opinions if possible.

I recently got a ticket from Carlisle City Council for not displaying my clock along with my blue badge in an on street bay. It was limited to 1 hour. While there were plenty of signs up remind one to display a badge of course nothing to say it required a clock.

Anyway I was issued with a ticket within 2 minutes of parking, honestly they must have seen me leave the car. However this area of Carlisle is a disc zone ( I didn't realise as Im not local) but surely I should have been given a 035 ticket which is failure to show a disc in the prescribed manner rather than a 040 offence? The 035 offence is at the lower rate than the 040.

I have made an appeal to CCC already which they have rejected, their reasoning being that failure to show a clock invalidates my blue badge. I don't think this argument stands however, the badge remains valid surely even if a clock is not shown and it is clearly displayed in their pictures.

if I had parked in a normal bay I would have been issued with a 035 offence surely, so I would have thought this would be the same with a blue badge?

I have checked the TRO for the central area, and it only states disc zone parking.

I do not dispute that I failed to show a clock but I do dispute the nature of the ticket and their reasoning. I also imagine they catch loads of people here!

Id love to hear your opinions as I am minded to take it to adjudication but Id like to know if you think Im on a hiding to nothing! Cheers.


This post has been edited by LUCYDOG: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:33
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post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:04
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Mr Mustard
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:13
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We always like to start by seeing a copy of the PCN please, cover up your vehicle registration if you wish.


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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:45
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OP----we need to see your challenge and their reply too.

Did you park in a disabled bay?

We need to identify the Parking Places Order properly. For instance this one does not specify any waiting prohibition for a disabled space ergo no need for a clock:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...rlisle-2018.pdf

Mick
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LUCYDOG
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:48
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Im really having trouble uploading the photos here. Is is problematic with Mac OS?
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Starworshipper12
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:50
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com.
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LUCYDOG
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 13:48
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[img]https://ibb.co/zxvXzvF
https://ibb.co/wWVL2hL
https://ibb.co/wSty33n
https://ibb.co/jJpQyB0
https://ibb.co/P5jzx5L[/img]

Success!!! Ive added the pictures and ticket and letter on the links.

This post has been edited by LUCYDOG: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 15:07
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LUCYDOG
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 20:42
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just bumping this a bit
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Gert
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 20:50
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The issue here is that there is a maximum time permitted for blue badge users to park there. So similar to a single or double yellow line, if you don't display the time clock clearly and correctly showing your time of arrival, it's impossible to know if a driver has exceeded the limit. There is nothing on the CCC website immediately obvious about the need to display both badge and clock in on street bays but there is about in car parks.

So without displaying your time clock how did you expect the CEO to know if you had bust the time limit?

This post has been edited by Gert: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 20:53
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Neil B
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 21:04
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QUOTE (LUCYDOG @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 13:04) *
I have made an appeal to CCC already

We need to see that.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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LUCYDOG
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 21:14
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Unfortunately I appealed online so I don't have it to hand.

I basically said that I believe a 040 offence did not occur because my valid badge was clearly on display. I thought that a 035 offence should have been issued which is a failure to display a clock in a disc zone. Had I parked in an ordinary parking bay I would have received the 035 ticket which is charged at the lower rate.

Carlisle city council state that failure to show a disc invalidates my badge which I don't think is the case.
I don't think it matters how long I was there as I don't dispute that I didn't display a clock, it is the issue of whether the offence was 040 or 035.
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 08:12
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OP---the Council's reply is smoke and mirrors and does not once refer to the Order.


You must have a search through the TPT library and find the Order for St Mary's Gate although I think we might have had another case there in the last couple of years.

The other point I have not checked is the sign. There is no DfT authority for the words "no return today" so unless the TSRGDs gives such permission the sign is not compliant.

Mick
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LUCYDOG
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 08:19
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Thanks, I will chase that up today and let you know what I find.
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Neil B
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 11:04
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QUOTE (Gert @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 21:50) *
So without displaying your time clock how did you expect the CEO to know if you had bust the time limit?

In the same way they would for any vehicle in a time limited free bay?

Based on the sign, perhaps no contravention.
The TRO may be more specific.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 15:06
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If a sign is time-limited then it means that, in these circumstances, a clock must be displayed.

The OP misrepresented what the authority said. They said that a valid permit was not displayed in the prescribed manner.

And it wasn't because the bay was time-limited and they know they should display a clock:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...nsibilities.pdf

Page 10 could not be clearer, and the OP should know if it's their BB, presumably they've read the booklet.

And the booklet says this because authorities may require this in their orders. That a clock has to be displayed does not have to be stated in the sign, indeed there isn't a prescribed sign with such permitted wording.

Now if by some chance - and although slim, it could happen - an authority has forgotten to specify this requirement, then there's no contravention. But as the OP cannot raise this informally, then it's formal reps or nothing.

The OP hasn't shown whether the discount is still on offer. If it is, I suggest taking it because IMO they would have no defence at adjudication. (The issue of no return today has no relevance as it is not related in any way to the alleged contravention and I could not suggest or recommend continuing to dispute on such flimsy grounds)
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 16:52
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This is the case I usually turn to when there is an issue with a BB clock. It also throws up the actual length of the stay and whether this can be proved by an appellant.


214033669AThe Penalty Charge Notice was issued when Mr X's car was parked in a disabled badge in Temple Fortune Lane. There was a disabled badge and clock in the car. The bay is for disabled badge who may park for up to three hours. The clock in the car was set at about 12:00. The Penalty Charge Notice was issued at 09:51. the local authority states that the car had been parked for more than three hours. I accept Mr X's evidence which is supported by a letter from his GP surgery that the car was parked for about 30 minutes. I find as a fact that the car was parked in the bay for less than three hours.

The local authority provides a copy of the Traffic Management Order. The Order states that a car parked in a disabled bay must have a disabled badge displayed. The Traffic Management Order does not refer to any requirement to display a clock. As there is no requirement to display a clock it follows that the incorrect setting of the clock does not amount to a contravention.

I allow this appeal.
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Mick
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cp8759
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 23 May 2019 - 16:06) *
If a sign is time-limited then it means that, in these circumstances, a clock must be displayed.

Nothing in the regulations says that though.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 18:25
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I cannot see the point in referring to a case where the order did not require a clock.

That the contravention cannot occur in these circumstances is given.

But this is not in evidence. On what basis could we risk the OP's money on the off-chance that another order does not place this requirement.


OP, if the order says you must, then you must. No different to any other restriction. What the booklet does is let you know that this requirement CAN be placed by authorities and that as the circumstances on the ground wouldn't tell you whether they'd made a mistake or not, then prudently the booklet tells BB holders to display their clock on the presumption that if it says X hours, this can be backed up with an order.

The rest is just like taking part in a lottery.

The discount ends ?
Are you the registered keeper?

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cp8759
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 18:28
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 23 May 2019 - 19:25) *
I cannot see the point in referring to a case where the order did not require a clock.

The TSRGD do not day that the sign used by the council means a parking disc (to give it its proper name) must be displayed. Indeed, some councils in Scotland don't even issue parking discs.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 18:59
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And this is your advice to challenge every such case on this basis?

Once you've got a body of decisions under your belt, fine. If not, the IMO you must caveat your advice, it reads almost ex cathedra.

PS. neither is the display of a permit specified in signs. Are we going to challenge on this basis as well?

No. It is absolutely clear that the law considers the totality of instructions and when a permit, whether resident, BB or whatever, is issued then their terms of use as specified would be taken into account by the law.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 23 May 2019 - 19:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 19:24
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a perverse decision, IMO made to justify a finding that as the OP could evidence the mistake the adjudicator wanted to cancel. The BB regulations state a clock should be displayed when there is a time limit Without it in those circumstances a BB is not valid


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