PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN after parking bay changed from free to chargeable
MikeC31
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 11:18
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



[attachment=60390:EV1.jpg]I got a ticket after parking in an on street parking space in Northampton. The substance to my appeal is that they have only recently changed the bays from free to chargeable. When I parked it was at dusk and nothing seemed any different to the countless other times I've parked before. Only after returning to find the ticket affixed did I spot the subtle change to the signage. Does this sound like reasonable grounds for an appeal?

I've submitted an Informal Appeal stating that I hadn't realised the change etc, I've yet to receive a response. I'm on the last day of the 14 days for reduced charge, do I wait for a council response or do I suck it up and pay?


I've tried to upload some attachments but it doesn't seem to be working for me?

This post has been edited by MikeC31: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 17:50
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 11:18
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
DastardlyDick
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 16:04
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,860
Joined: 12 May 2012
Member No.: 54,871



As usual, please post up the PCN, both sides with PCN and Reg. Nos obscured/redacted but all other details left visible.
Unfortunately, ignorance is not a valid reason for an appeal, but the Council may exercise discretion.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 15:53
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Don't pay, there's a fatal flaw on Northamptonshire County Council PCNs. They offer an option to pay by phone by calling an 0845 number, this number includes a service charge that is charged on top of the cost of the call, and they pocket this "extra" money. The High Court has previously ruled that councils cannot charge a penny more than the statutory penalty, and even if the surcharge is only provided for one payment method it doesn't matter, the whole PCN is invalid.

Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909

Northamptonshire are very helpful as they even confirm at the bottom of the PCN that the surcharge is 4p per minute.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 22:06
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



Ok, so having submitted my informal dispute the day after the ticket was issued I've yet to have a response from the council. I'm assuming I wait it out until they come back and if they say there are not willing to exercise discretion I then try the route outlined below?

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 15:53) *
Don't pay, there's a fatal flaw on Northamptonshire County Council PCNs. They offer an option to pay by phone by calling an 0845 number, this number includes a service charge that is charged on top of the cost of the call, and they pocket this "extra" money. The High Court has previously ruled that councils cannot charge a penny more than the statutory penalty, and even if the surcharge is only provided for one payment method it doesn't matter, the whole PCN is invalid.

Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909

Northamptonshire are very helpful as they even confirm at the bottom of the PCN that the surcharge is 4p per minute.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 22:19
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (MikeC31 @ Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 22:06) *
Ok, so having submitted my informal dispute the day after the ticket was issued I've yet to have a response from the council. I'm assuming I wait it out until they come back and if they say there are not willing to exercise discretion I then try the route outlined below?

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 15:53) *
Don't pay, there's a fatal flaw on Northamptonshire County Council PCNs. They offer an option to pay by phone by calling an 0845 number, this number includes a service charge that is charged on top of the cost of the call, and they pocket this "extra" money. The High Court has previously ruled that councils cannot charge a penny more than the statutory penalty, and even if the surcharge is only provided for one payment method it doesn't matter, the whole PCN is invalid.

Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909

Northamptonshire are very helpful as they even confirm at the bottom of the PCN that the surcharge is 4p per minute.


Yes, though if a Notice to Owner arrives in the mean time we will need to deal with that, as it supersedes your informal challenge.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:11
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



As anticipated my informal appeal was rejected, they went to town on the reply, it was 4 full pages of explanation, my suspicion is that they've sent the same letter to fair few others who'd been similarly caught out, I'm guessing the recent change has probably been quite the money maker.

Now I'm trying to weigh up the options, ticket paid would be £25 and all forgotten about, if I chose to ride it out on the technicality about the 4p surcharge on the payment line, how much effort am I going to have to put in? will I end up having to make personal representations at a tribunal or can it all be done from the sofa?

I've got the letter but this site tells me I'm out of space so can't upload, however the letter restates payment options and again lists the surcharge on the phone line.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:23
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



Whilst reading another post I spotted a comment about checking the V5 is up to date, turns out mine wasn't and is still registered at our old address.

Original PCN was on the 11th December, so I'm guessing the Notice to owner has been issued by now?

What are my options now?

Is it best to just pay the £25 charge to avoid getting caught up in any other action?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:31
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (MikeC31 @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:23) *
Whilst reading another post I spotted a comment about checking the V5 is up to date, turns out mine wasn't and is still registered at our old address.

Original PCN was on the 11th December, so I'm guessing the Notice to owner has been issued by now?

What are my options now?

Is it best to just pay the £25 charge to avoid getting caught up in any other action?

Don't pay, but you must act swiftly.

1) Update your V5C immediately, failing to do so is a criminal offence.

2) Get in touch with the current occupiers of the old address and ask if anything has arrived in your name. If it has, go pick it up or ask them to forward it.

3) In any event, write to the council, explain that you have moved house recently (don't say when) and your V5C is in the process of getting updated, but all correspondence should come to your new address regardless of what the DVLA database shows.

4) Upload the rejection letter on here in full. There won't be space on here, so upload it to http://imgur.com and post a link.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:31


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 08:07
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:31) *
.........3) In any event, write to the council, explain that you have moved house recently (don't say when) and your V5C is in the process of getting updated, but all correspondence should come to your new address regardless of what the DVLA database shows.
……...


Include utility bill copies as evidence of the move, preferably in your name.
Or bank/card statements though blank anything sensitive like account numbers.

Don't forget that driving licence also needs updating if that also adrift.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 10:36
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



V5 updated and posted yesterday.

Driving Licence was already up-to-date.

Owners of previous property not in this morning but will try again later.

Appeal Refusal letter





Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 10:52
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



They have obviously had loads of complaints so have a full template covering what seems like commonly used challenge points.
The critical one regarding the contravention is the duty of the motorist to check signs when they park.
Which leaves the 0845 issue.
You need to decide whether to go forward with this.
Did you raise it within your informal challenge?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 21:23
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



It's worth noting that in our experience so far, every single council faced with the 0845 issue has backed down, with the exception of Bristol where, unless the council comes up with some very compelling rebuttal arguments, it seems we'll get a favourable decision.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:25
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 10:52) *
They have obviously had loads of complaints so have a full template covering what seems like commonly used challenge points.
The critical one regarding the contravention is the duty of the motorist to check signs when they park.
Which leaves the 0845 issue.
You need to decide whether to go forward with this.
Did you raise it within your informal challenge?


I haven't yet raised the 0845 issue.

Can a second informal submission regarding the surcharge be done to get this to go away?

V5C update Pending and Council advised of new address

Spoke to the new owners of the old house, they do sometimes keep post for a bit. They didn't have anything that related to this PCN. Some post dating back to Mid December was present in their post so there is a chance that a NTK hasn't yet been sent, is this likely? Would the council have held off until the 14 day grace on the rejection letter?

If I do proceed do I just need to wait until they next communicate or is there something I'm now expected to do?

Still a little unclear on how much effort is going to be required on my behalf to defend this, If I'm going to have to make personal representation then any costs I'll incur in loss of work will outweigh just paying the fine and moving on.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rosturra
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:42
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 683
Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Member No.: 93,086



QUOTE (MikeC31 @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:25) *
Still a little unclear on how much effort is going to be required on my behalf to defend this,
If I'm going to have to make personal representation then any costs I'll incur in loss of work will outweigh just paying the fine and moving on.


You can do all the legwork in the evenings, and appeal online.

You don't have to personally attend appeal tribunals.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:43
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Only after returning to find the ticket affixed did I spot the subtle change to the signage.

Any chance of a photo of this sign?

The authority's response states that you were parked in a Pay and Display zone, therefore NO signs are required in parking places at all, but they may be placed if imposing a different restriction, in which case the order would show this. It's unlikely in practice, but we need to see the sign in the parking place and the zone entry sign.

And as regards the NTO, IMO matters are getting too complicated. All that has to happen to give YOU the power to make reps against a NTO is that it's been served in your name: you do not have to be resident at the address, in fact this forum is replete with threads where the owners were not living at their DVLA address but,unlike you, who knows this in advance, they only found out too late.

So two working days after being issued you could submit reps in which you would tell them your current address to be used for future correspondence. There's no need to involve current occupiers of your old address.(this would deny us an early look at the NTO, but I think we've got examples in other threads and there's their website. The 0845 issue takes on greater impact with the NTO because this is a demand for payment which the PCN is not, it's merely a notification)

Photos pl.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:53
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:37
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (MikeC31 @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:25) *
I haven't yet raised the 0845 issue.

Can a second informal submission regarding the surcharge be done to get this to go away?

Yes, you can make informal representations for as long as the Notice to Owner has not yet been served. In practice it's unlikely they'll back down at the informal stage, but you can certainly try. If you want to make a further informal representation, as always post a draft here first.

If they send back a response saying they're "unable to consider" further informal reps (as they sometimes do), that's a procedural impropriety you can use later on.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 18:02
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:43) *
Only after returning to find the ticket affixed did I spot the subtle change to the signage.

Any chance of a photo of this sign?

Photos pl.


I don't have an image of the sign at the start of the zone but can try and get one tomorrow, the evidence from the Parking officer included some shots close up and also a wide angle to show the proximity

It was sufficiently far from my vehicle that on a quick look from the position of the drivers seat appeared no different to the signs previously in place.

https://imgur.com/68eMTW0
https://imgur.com/pAffpCN

I don't think this adds anything other than to reiterate the surcharge for 0845 number, but this was the auto response to my email regarding restatement of correct address.

QUOTE
Thank you for your email regarding Penalty Charge Notice xxx.

Please be assured that your communication has been attached to the relevant case which has now been placed ON HOLD pending a decision and a response will be issued to you in due course. In the meantime should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on our Helpline on 0845 680 0153*

For information, I can confirm that when a challenge letter/email is received the case is automatically placed in a queue awaiting a response and the cases are allocated to staff and dealt with in date order. Whilst Northamptonshire County Council endeavour to respond to all correspondence received with 14 days, this is not always possible and is dependent on staffing levels due to sickness, annual leave, etc and the amount of work received in our offices. If there is a delay in responding to the original challenge to ensure that the recipient of the Penalty Charge Notice is not disadvantaged the discounted period will be reset for a further 14 days when a response is issued if the PCN is not cancelled.

Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact our offices on 0845 680 0153 (Option 2)

Kind Regards
Mrs Sadie Howsam
Parking Investigation Officer
Parking Services
One Angel Square, Angel Street, Northampton, NN1 1ED

Tel: 0845 680 0153 * - Option 2
*Calls will cost 4p per minute, plus your phone company’s access charge.

http://www3.northamptonshire.gov.uk/counci...ine-appeal.aspx

Please be advised that my working days are Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday & Friday.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MikeC31
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:31
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 25 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,588



I figured I may as well take the gamble and go for the 0845 appeal, If I pay up I'm on the hook for £25 anyway so it's a £25 gamble which will possibly help others make the decision to appeal on similar grounds in the future.

See below for my proposed appeal, any recommended amendments?
I write further to my previous representations to appeal the penalty charge on the grounds that it exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

On the rear of the Penalty Charge Notice, it is stated that payment can be made by telephone, by calling the payment line 0845 680 0153. The PCN further states “Calls will cost 4 pence per minute plus your phone company’s access charge” Consequently, the service charge is 4p per minute which is paid to the Council either directly or through reduced payments to the contractor servicing the payment line. The consequence is that any motorist, vehicle owner or registered keeper is requested to pay an increased penalty, that stipulated on the Penalty Charge Notice plus an additional 4p per minute service charge.

It has been held in London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) that the imposition of a service charge in addition to the penalty it is allowed to set by law “results in a demand for payment of a sum which exceeds that authorised under the statutory scheme” and is unlawful, as the High Court Ruled in paragraphs 28 and 29:

“28. Mr Coppel submits that the only form of payment that the Council are obliged to accept as a matter of law is cash in legal tender, unless they agree otherwise. As a matter of strict theory that may be right, although I venture to suggest that a Council which required parking contraveners to pay cash in notes, or coins of £1 or higher value (current legal tender) would be vulnerable to a challenge on grounds of rationality. Nobody is forced to pay by credit card. The Council suggest that it is not increasing the penalty charge but rather recovering an external cost associated with making a convenient method of payment available to those guilty of parking contraventions. Mr Coppel accepts that if this argument were right (and subject always to the vires to make any charge), then so far as the parking enforcement regime was concerned, the Council could recover by way of administrative fee the cost of dealing with any mechanism of payment except cash presented in denominations which were legal tender. There was no evidence before me of any external costs to a merchant associated with payment by debit card or cheque but such facilities are rarely free. There is clearly a significant cost in staff time and systems administration involved in accepting any form of payment. Cheques are especially labour intensive and costly. No doubt any enforcing authority could easily identify the global costs of collecting penalty charges by category and then attempt to divide those costs by the number of penalty charges they expect to recover to determine an administration fee appropriate to each. Yet that is far from the limit of the administrative charges that an inventive enforcing authority might seek to add to the penalty charge authorised by law. Civil enforcement officers must be administrative superstructure which costs money. It is, submits Mr Coppel, only because the Parking Adjudicators failed to understand that there is a critical difference between the penalty charge and the costs of recovering that charge that they fell into the error of concluding that the penalty charge exceeded the amount prescribed by the statutory scheme. Mr Rogers, who appears for the Parking Adjudicators, submits that whatever label the Council attempt to attach to the 1.3% fee, it is in substance a surcharge that results in a demand for payment of a sum which exceeds that authorised under the statutory scheme.

29. I am unable to accept Mr Coppel’s argument that for the purposes of regulation 4(4)(e) the 1.3% fee can be separated from the penalty charge. As is common ground, an enforcing authority is not at liberty to set its own penalty charges but is limited to the sums set under the statutory scheme. The substance of what the Council did was to increase their penalty charge if payment were to be made by credit card to 101.3% of the sum authorised under that scheme. On Mr Coppel’s argument the Council might just as well have introduced other administrative charges and added those too. It is clear, in my judgment, that a Parking Adjudicator is obliged to allow an appeal if the sum required to be paid to an enforcing authority by the motorist exceeds the amount set by the statutory scheme, however the enforcing authority seeks to characterise the additional charge. It makes no difference that the Council identified four mechanisms of payment, only one of which included the surcharge. Having offered that method all motorists were freely entitled to use it and were exposed to the potential demand for 101.3% of the appropriate penalty charge. In these circumstances the Council was demanding a sum to discharge the motorist’s liability which was greater than that prescribed by law.”


In this instance, by imposing or allowing to impose a 4p per minute service charge for telephone payments, the council has offered a payment method which requires the Penalty Charge Notice Recipient to have to pay a total amount which exceeds the statutory penalty prescribed by law.

The High Court has ruled that where one payment method attracts a surcharge, the availability of other payment methods that do not attract the surcharge is not relevant. It follows, as a matter of law, that the enforcement authority has demanded a sum of money greater than that permitted by law.

The correct penalty charge in the circumstances of the case, £50.00, has therefore been exceeded. Therefore, the Penalty Charge Notice must be cancelled.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:37
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Given we're still at the informal stage I think that is more than adequate.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:50
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



The rejection letter states there are no additional charges foe using the 0845 number. Best phone it and then check with your provider. Your providers network access charge does not count only a service charge set by the council


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 17:36
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here