PCN after parking bay changed from free to chargeable |
PCN after parking bay changed from free to chargeable |
Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 11:18
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
[attachment=60390:EV1.jpg]I got a ticket after parking in an on street parking space in Northampton. The substance to my appeal is that they have only recently changed the bays from free to chargeable. When I parked it was at dusk and nothing seemed any different to the countless other times I've parked before. Only after returning to find the ticket affixed did I spot the subtle change to the signage. Does this sound like reasonable grounds for an appeal?
I've submitted an Informal Appeal stating that I hadn't realised the change etc, I've yet to receive a response. I'm on the last day of the 14 days for reduced charge, do I wait for a council response or do I suck it up and pay? I've tried to upload some attachments but it doesn't seem to be working for me? This post has been edited by MikeC31: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 17:50 |
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 11:18
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 16:04
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
As usual, please post up the PCN, both sides with PCN and Reg. Nos obscured/redacted but all other details left visible.
Unfortunately, ignorance is not a valid reason for an appeal, but the Council may exercise discretion. |
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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 15:53
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Don't pay, there's a fatal flaw on Northamptonshire County Council PCNs. They offer an option to pay by phone by calling an 0845 number, this number includes a service charge that is charged on top of the cost of the call, and they pocket this "extra" money. The High Court has previously ruled that councils cannot charge a penny more than the statutory penalty, and even if the surcharge is only provided for one payment method it doesn't matter, the whole PCN is invalid.
Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909 Northamptonshire are very helpful as they even confirm at the bottom of the PCN that the surcharge is 4p per minute. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 22:06
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
Ok, so having submitted my informal dispute the day after the ticket was issued I've yet to have a response from the council. I'm assuming I wait it out until they come back and if they say there are not willing to exercise discretion I then try the route outlined below?
Don't pay, there's a fatal flaw on Northamptonshire County Council PCNs. They offer an option to pay by phone by calling an 0845 number, this number includes a service charge that is charged on top of the cost of the call, and they pocket this "extra" money. The High Court has previously ruled that councils cannot charge a penny more than the statutory penalty, and even if the surcharge is only provided for one payment method it doesn't matter, the whole PCN is invalid. Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909 Northamptonshire are very helpful as they even confirm at the bottom of the PCN that the surcharge is 4p per minute. |
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Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 22:19
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Ok, so having submitted my informal dispute the day after the ticket was issued I've yet to have a response from the council. I'm assuming I wait it out until they come back and if they say there are not willing to exercise discretion I then try the route outlined below? Don't pay, there's a fatal flaw on Northamptonshire County Council PCNs. They offer an option to pay by phone by calling an 0845 number, this number includes a service charge that is charged on top of the cost of the call, and they pocket this "extra" money. The High Court has previously ruled that councils cannot charge a penny more than the statutory penalty, and even if the surcharge is only provided for one payment method it doesn't matter, the whole PCN is invalid. Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909 Northamptonshire are very helpful as they even confirm at the bottom of the PCN that the surcharge is 4p per minute. Yes, though if a Notice to Owner arrives in the mean time we will need to deal with that, as it supersedes your informal challenge. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:11
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
As anticipated my informal appeal was rejected, they went to town on the reply, it was 4 full pages of explanation, my suspicion is that they've sent the same letter to fair few others who'd been similarly caught out, I'm guessing the recent change has probably been quite the money maker.
Now I'm trying to weigh up the options, ticket paid would be £25 and all forgotten about, if I chose to ride it out on the technicality about the 4p surcharge on the payment line, how much effort am I going to have to put in? will I end up having to make personal representations at a tribunal or can it all be done from the sofa? I've got the letter but this site tells me I'm out of space so can't upload, however the letter restates payment options and again lists the surcharge on the phone line. |
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Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:23
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
Whilst reading another post I spotted a comment about checking the V5 is up to date, turns out mine wasn't and is still registered at our old address.
Original PCN was on the 11th December, so I'm guessing the Notice to owner has been issued by now? What are my options now? Is it best to just pay the £25 charge to avoid getting caught up in any other action? |
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Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:31
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Whilst reading another post I spotted a comment about checking the V5 is up to date, turns out mine wasn't and is still registered at our old address. Original PCN was on the 11th December, so I'm guessing the Notice to owner has been issued by now? What are my options now? Is it best to just pay the £25 charge to avoid getting caught up in any other action? Don't pay, but you must act swiftly. 1) Update your V5C immediately, failing to do so is a criminal offence. 2) Get in touch with the current occupiers of the old address and ask if anything has arrived in your name. If it has, go pick it up or ask them to forward it. 3) In any event, write to the council, explain that you have moved house recently (don't say when) and your V5C is in the process of getting updated, but all correspondence should come to your new address regardless of what the DVLA database shows. 4) Upload the rejection letter on here in full. There won't be space on here, so upload it to http://imgur.com and post a link. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 21:31 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 08:07
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
.........3) In any event, write to the council, explain that you have moved house recently (don't say when) and your V5C is in the process of getting updated, but all correspondence should come to your new address regardless of what the DVLA database shows. ……... Include utility bill copies as evidence of the move, preferably in your name. Or bank/card statements though blank anything sensitive like account numbers. Don't forget that driving licence also needs updating if that also adrift. |
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Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 10:36
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
V5 updated and posted yesterday.
Driving Licence was already up-to-date. Owners of previous property not in this morning but will try again later. Appeal Refusal letter |
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Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 10:52
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
They have obviously had loads of complaints so have a full template covering what seems like commonly used challenge points.
The critical one regarding the contravention is the duty of the motorist to check signs when they park. Which leaves the 0845 issue. You need to decide whether to go forward with this. Did you raise it within your informal challenge? |
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Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 21:23
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
It's worth noting that in our experience so far, every single council faced with the 0845 issue has backed down, with the exception of Bristol where, unless the council comes up with some very compelling rebuttal arguments, it seems we'll get a favourable decision.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:25
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
They have obviously had loads of complaints so have a full template covering what seems like commonly used challenge points. The critical one regarding the contravention is the duty of the motorist to check signs when they park. Which leaves the 0845 issue. You need to decide whether to go forward with this. Did you raise it within your informal challenge? I haven't yet raised the 0845 issue. Can a second informal submission regarding the surcharge be done to get this to go away? V5C update Pending and Council advised of new address Spoke to the new owners of the old house, they do sometimes keep post for a bit. They didn't have anything that related to this PCN. Some post dating back to Mid December was present in their post so there is a chance that a NTK hasn't yet been sent, is this likely? Would the council have held off until the 14 day grace on the rejection letter? If I do proceed do I just need to wait until they next communicate or is there something I'm now expected to do? Still a little unclear on how much effort is going to be required on my behalf to defend this, If I'm going to have to make personal representation then any costs I'll incur in loss of work will outweigh just paying the fine and moving on. |
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Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:42
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 683 Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Member No.: 93,086 |
Still a little unclear on how much effort is going to be required on my behalf to defend this, If I'm going to have to make personal representation then any costs I'll incur in loss of work will outweigh just paying the fine and moving on. You can do all the legwork in the evenings, and appeal online. You don't have to personally attend appeal tribunals. |
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Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:43
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,060 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Only after returning to find the ticket affixed did I spot the subtle change to the signage.
Any chance of a photo of this sign? The authority's response states that you were parked in a Pay and Display zone, therefore NO signs are required in parking places at all, but they may be placed if imposing a different restriction, in which case the order would show this. It's unlikely in practice, but we need to see the sign in the parking place and the zone entry sign. And as regards the NTO, IMO matters are getting too complicated. All that has to happen to give YOU the power to make reps against a NTO is that it's been served in your name: you do not have to be resident at the address, in fact this forum is replete with threads where the owners were not living at their DVLA address but,unlike you, who knows this in advance, they only found out too late. So two working days after being issued you could submit reps in which you would tell them your current address to be used for future correspondence. There's no need to involve current occupiers of your old address.(this would deny us an early look at the NTO, but I think we've got examples in other threads and there's their website. The 0845 issue takes on greater impact with the NTO because this is a demand for payment which the PCN is not, it's merely a notification) Photos pl. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:53 |
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Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:37
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I haven't yet raised the 0845 issue. Can a second informal submission regarding the surcharge be done to get this to go away? Yes, you can make informal representations for as long as the Notice to Owner has not yet been served. In practice it's unlikely they'll back down at the informal stage, but you can certainly try. If you want to make a further informal representation, as always post a draft here first. If they send back a response saying they're "unable to consider" further informal reps (as they sometimes do), that's a procedural impropriety you can use later on. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 18:02
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
Only after returning to find the ticket affixed did I spot the subtle change to the signage. Any chance of a photo of this sign? Photos pl. I don't have an image of the sign at the start of the zone but can try and get one tomorrow, the evidence from the Parking officer included some shots close up and also a wide angle to show the proximity It was sufficiently far from my vehicle that on a quick look from the position of the drivers seat appeared no different to the signs previously in place. https://imgur.com/68eMTW0 https://imgur.com/pAffpCN I don't think this adds anything other than to reiterate the surcharge for 0845 number, but this was the auto response to my email regarding restatement of correct address. QUOTE Thank you for your email regarding Penalty Charge Notice xxx.
Please be assured that your communication has been attached to the relevant case which has now been placed ON HOLD pending a decision and a response will be issued to you in due course. In the meantime should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on our Helpline on 0845 680 0153* For information, I can confirm that when a challenge letter/email is received the case is automatically placed in a queue awaiting a response and the cases are allocated to staff and dealt with in date order. Whilst Northamptonshire County Council endeavour to respond to all correspondence received with 14 days, this is not always possible and is dependent on staffing levels due to sickness, annual leave, etc and the amount of work received in our offices. If there is a delay in responding to the original challenge to ensure that the recipient of the Penalty Charge Notice is not disadvantaged the discounted period will be reset for a further 14 days when a response is issued if the PCN is not cancelled. Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact our offices on 0845 680 0153 (Option 2) Kind Regards Mrs Sadie Howsam Parking Investigation Officer Parking Services One Angel Square, Angel Street, Northampton, NN1 1ED Tel: 0845 680 0153 * - Option 2 *Calls will cost 4p per minute, plus your phone company’s access charge. http://www3.northamptonshire.gov.uk/counci...ine-appeal.aspx Please be advised that my working days are Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday & Friday. |
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:31
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 25 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,588 |
I figured I may as well take the gamble and go for the 0845 appeal, If I pay up I'm on the hook for £25 anyway so it's a £25 gamble which will possibly help others make the decision to appeal on similar grounds in the future.
See below for my proposed appeal, any recommended amendments? I write further to my previous representations to appeal the penalty charge on the grounds that it exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case. |
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:37
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Given we're still at the informal stage I think that is more than adequate.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:50
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The rejection letter states there are no additional charges foe using the 0845 number. Best phone it and then check with your provider. Your providers network access charge does not count only a service charge set by the council
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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