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Bus Lane NEWHAM
mystroe
post Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 19:12
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Brief summary- received PCN for bus lane. Appealed on grounds that signs for restrictions lacking. 3 months later Newham respond that signs are fine..

All replies with definitive and concise appeal grounds welcomed.

I don't doubt quite a few motorists have paid up for similar PCNs at this spot.

This post has been edited by mystroe: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 19:13
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post Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 19:12
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mystroe
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:27) *
So it's showing £130 ?

That would mean they've noted the revoking order and will now issue a new EN.
They may have already done so.

I suggest you ask them.


Yes showing £130.
Thanks for the advice.
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 19:25
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You might want to chase them for the new EN.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mystroe
post Sat, 25 May 2019 - 05:40
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 21:11) *
If this goes to the tribunal I would make a claim for costs. It is wholly unreasonable for them to say the bus lane is "clearly signposted"



Didn't go to tribunal but I would still like to claim for costs -

Solicitor fee for notarising
Postage, printing and packaging
Travelling/photography/video costs
etc.

Any suggestions?
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cp8759
post Sat, 25 May 2019 - 13:22
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Sat, 25 May 2019 - 06:40) *
Solicitor fee for notarising
Postage, printing and packaging
Travelling/photography/video costs
etc.

Any suggestions?

There is no legal mechanism for you to do so, and even if it had gone to the tribunal you might not have got your costs as they are only awarded in exceptional circumstances. In any case the solicitor's fee was a self-inflicted loss, as you could have done it for free at any magistrates' court or county court. You could send them a letter but all that'll happen is they'll send you a standard rejection letter, I can even tell you what it says.

If you have a look on Newham's templated response wording on http://bit.ly/2MGHScE go to the Payment Queries tab and on row 7 there's a paragraph called Unable To Compensate which says:

The issue of a penalty charge notice is statutory process by virtue of the Traffic Management Act 2004, therefore, the council cannot be held responsible for any costs incurred by the owner or driver of a vehicle, when contesting the issue of a penalty charge notice. The only bodies legally authorised to award costs against the council are the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service (PaTAS). In view of this, I am unable to authorise a refund of the sundry charges that you have referred to.

You could waste a council officer's time in adapting this wording to a bus lane case, printing it out on a letter and sending it to you in the post, but frankly it's a waste of time and money, both for you and the (taxpayer funded) council.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 25 May 2019 - 13:28


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mystroe
post Tue, 28 May 2019 - 19:26
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Thanks for giving details on the status quo. What do you suggest for improving the protocol.
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mystroe
post Tue, 28 May 2019 - 19:37
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My interpretation of this is that it is quite acceptable for a council to disreguard their duties for maintaining signs - then dish out related penalties to the unwitting, adopt a primary response of all appeals to be declined, and then if needs be quietly cancel them with no accountability required for the unfounded allegations.

Is this the advanced society we live in and pay for?
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Incandescent
post Tue, 28 May 2019 - 20:10
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 20:37) *
My interpretation of this is that it is quite acceptable for a council to disreguard their duties for maintaining signs - then dish out related penalties to the unwitting, adopt a primary response of all appeals to be declined, and then if needs be quietly cancel them with no accountability required for the unfounded allegations.

Is this the advanced society we live in and pay for?

I'm afraid it is, although I would not use the word "advanced". Unfortunately we have to deal with the situation as created by Parliament, so think about who you vote for, because both the main parties are responsible for the current mess, and see no need to reform it.
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mystroe
post Tue, 28 May 2019 - 20:57
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Well spoken Incandescent
Perhaps something that can be raised on a local level with the benevolent ear of an MP
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Neil B
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 09:42
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 21:57) *
Perhaps something that can be raised on a local level with the benevolent ear of an MP

Oh, we never thought of that! rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 21:32) *
QUOTE (mystroe @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 23:39) *
Knock it off.

There will always be plenty who shrug their shoulders and sigh.. even try and quell an injustice. Let us not rely on them. They have lost vigour, like a tired judge yawning in trial.

So you presume.

There are many members here who have made contact or are in contact with, variously, DfT, MoJ, LAO, TEC, local MPs, local
Councillors, bailiff companies, E.T.& A., the press. Some have even established relationships with council enforcement depts.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 29 May 2019 - 10:34


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 19:27
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 20:26) *
Thanks for giving details on the status quo. What do you suggest for improving the protocol.

That would be a political issue: you can take it up with the council, the elected councillors, the local MP, the Department for Transport, you could start a letter-writing campaign to the local papers, you could start a petition on Parliament's petitions website, I suppose you could go as far as proposing a referendum on the subject.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mystroe
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 19:45
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Thank you for your replies. Thinking positively, humans made slavery illegal, so accountability for false allegations on parking should be achievable! We'll get there.
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mystroe
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 20:07
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 29 May 2019 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (mystroe @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 21:57) *
Perhaps something that can be raised on a local level with the benevolent ear of an MP

Oh, we never thought of that! rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 21:32) *
QUOTE (mystroe @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 23:39) *
Knock it off.

There will always be plenty who shrug their shoulders and sigh.. even try and quell an injustice. Let us not rely on them. They have lost vigour, like a tired judge yawning in trial.

So you presume.

There are many members here who have made contact or are in contact with, variously, DfT, MoJ, LAO, TEC, local MPs, local
Councillors, bailiff companies, E.T.& A., the press. Some have even established relationships with council enforcement depts.


Neil - I'm hoping that's a bit of sarcasm there - instead why not reply more encouragingly to inspire people to actually make a difference. Do you think Martin Luther King responded to a newbies 'abolish slavery' with Oh! we never thought of that?

All well and good mentioning these contacted bodies, but you fail to mention how anyone else can help, contribute and add to these endeavours. Which begs the question - do you profit from parking penalties?

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mystroe
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 20:21
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Pepipoo - Helping the motorist get justice
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cp8759
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 20:37
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Wed, 29 May 2019 - 21:07) *
Neil - I'm hoping that's a bit of sarcasm there - instead why not reply more encouragingly to inspire people to actually make a difference. Do you think Martin Luther King responded to a newbies 'abolish slavery' with Oh! we never thought of that?

All well and good mentioning these contacted bodies, but you fail to mention how anyone else can help, contribute and add to these endeavours. Which begs the question - do you profit from parking penalties?

I think Neil was making the point that achieving change is not easy. I'm personally trying to get one area of the law actually changed but this sort of stuff takes years of effort.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mystroe
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 18:31
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 19:26) *
Thanks for giving details on the status quo. What do you suggest for improving the protocol.


Note my earlier question.. Is a petition another suggestion that will be refuted with 'we hadn't thought about that'?

To ask again, what can be done, and what can I and other motorists do to personally help?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 May 2019 - 20:59
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What do you want to do, Tell us and we can suggest routes (because we have tried many) but you need a clear objective not just the council shouldn't do that


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Neil B
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 00:03
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Wed, 29 May 2019 - 21:07) *
do you profit from parking penalties?

Yes I do.
Just as everyone does.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Earl Purple
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 10:37
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 21:10) *
QUOTE (mystroe @ Tue, 28 May 2019 - 20:37) *
My interpretation of this is that it is quite acceptable for a council to disreguard their duties for maintaining signs - then dish out related penalties to the unwitting, adopt a primary response of all appeals to be declined, and then if needs be quietly cancel them with no accountability required for the unfounded allegations.

Is this the advanced society we live in and pay for?

I'm afraid it is, although I would not use the word "advanced". Unfortunately we have to deal with the situation as created by Parliament, so think about who you vote for, because both the main parties are responsible for the current mess, and see no need to reform it.


I have not yet noticed that any local council behaves better regarding traffic issues than any other due to which party is in force there. Such a conversation is better for Flame Pit or one of the other forums on here.
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mystroe
post Wed, 5 Jun 2019 - 19:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 30 May 2019 - 20:59) *
What do you want to do, Tell us and we can suggest routes (because we have tried many) but you need a clear objective not just the council shouldn't do that

My concern is that whilst one council department lapses in its responsibilities for maintaining signage, another department profits from delivering PCNs. Possible entrapment scenario.

I appreciate you need a clear objective, so apologies in advance for being non-specific. In the main I feel a council should be accountable for its allegations, if they turn out to be false, they should be responsible for covering (reasonable) expenses incurred by the accused in defending their innocence.
Lacking this, councils have little incentive to ensure their allegations are accurate . Plus given the costs for the accused to make representations, there is little or no financial incentive to dispute the allegation.

Just to extrapolate- the average hourly UK wage seems to be in the £10p/h region. Thus a false alleged PCN generates up to 6.5 hours of time to defend whilst still being financially beneficial (excluding any postage and printing costs etc). e.g. I spend 2 hours on my representations (£20) so I save £45. Yet - if I am innocent, I have still lost £20...!
In my case the local council were sending letters to my previous address for some 12 months. The new resident was rightly concerned about bailiff visits and communicated this to me, which is actually pretty embarrassing.

Enough rambling - how can I do my little bit to have a small but meaningful contribution to making wrongly alleged contraventions easier to defend. I'm happy to write to the local MP, any suggestions on a member of the house of lords appreciated.

Any guidance on how I should or could be more specific would be appreciated.

Lastly, consider what organisations can dish out a false accusation or allegation, and then resort to - oh it's statutory so - well we can do things like that, tough luck..

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 May 2019 - 20:37) *
I'm personally trying to get one area of the law actually changed

Could you tell us a bit more - what legislation and what is your proposed change and what support do you require
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 5 Jun 2019 - 20:15
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Sorry that was just a rant. and would get you nowhere. You entered a bus lane a contravention, you made a defence it was finally accepted. You applied for costs they were denied All legal and within process so the next step is JR of the adjudicators decision to deny costs

it comes down in the end to a subjective decision as to the substantial compliance of the signs The first officials found them compliant, one did not they are entitled to do so.


I cannot see a change in the law to alter that. Perhaps a slackening of the strict high bar for costs, but that could be poisoned fruit


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