PCN Bus lane |
PCN Bus lane |
Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 10:35
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,680 |
Hi,
Recently got a PCN from Cambridge Council for being in a bus lane - Scan attached. I think I have a few lines of attack: Date of service PCN, Issued on 16/11/2018 (Friday), plus 2 working days should be 20/11/2018 (Tuesday) based on the fact 17/18th are the weekend. The Data of Service is shown as 18/11/2019. Signage Do I understand correctly that a Bus lane sign (It was actually a bus only road) should display the addition of the "Only" 953.2 sign as per the Traffic Signs manual: 15.29 Where either a one-way or two-way road is reserved for buses and cycles, the entry points should be indicated by signs to diagram 953. The other end of a one-way road must have “no entry” signs to diagram 616 in accordance with paras 4.39 to 4.41. Where the order permits taxis to use the road or excludes cycles, the sign to diagram 953 shall be varied accordingly. As with contra-flow bus lanes, this sign must be used in combination with the “Only” plate to diagram 953.2. Photos of the bus gate attached showing the "Only" 953.2 sign isn't present Thanks for any advice! |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 10:35
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:35
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#2
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP----Yes you have it. Service of a PCN can never occur on a Sunday. This case is important:-
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1381600 Plus they have a phone number which charges 7p per minute to make payments which is not acceptable. Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:44 |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:48
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The Traffic Signs Manual is out of date as its based on the 2002 regulations, but wrong date of service and the telephone payment surcharge should win.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 13:33
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Date of service is a winner.
They very helpfully do specify the correct working out but the only date the recipient is likely to follow is the one printed on the top. This removes two days from time given by parliament and is also likely to be the deadline date within their computer system. Ground is Penalty Exceeds as they have unlawfully altered deadlines to your detriment. Add on the 7p added charge on the phone number (same ground) and you should have a certainty. |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 15:54
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would wait till the (correct) 14th day and check if the penalty has gone up to £60 on their online payment system. If it has, take a screenshot and it's an open and shut "penalty exceeds amount due" case.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 12:38
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,680 |
Thanks for the feedback :-)
So having read around here and the links supplied by Mad Mick, is it as simple as the text Mick already had on the other thread: Dear Sir/Madam, In regards to PCN: xyz The "Data of Service" on the PCN (18/11/2018) is incorrect, you point out on the PCN how the Data of Service is calculated: "Please note the Date of Service has been calculated for you being 2 working days after the date of posting, as sent by 1st class post unless you can prove otherwise" The Date PCN issued and posted is stated as 16/11/2018, plus 2 working days and the actual Date of service should read 20/11/2018. Therefore the PCN does not comply with The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005 in that the date of service given on the PCN is incorrect. The effect of this fault is prejudicial and unfair in that it truncates the statutory time scales relating to the discount period, the 28 day limit and has the potential for a premature Charge Certificate. I would therefore contend that the PCN is a nullity and not enforceable. In addition to this I also note that Cambridgeshire Council are also enforcing a premium rate telephone number for payments, this fundamentally is fundamentally an over charge as you are making additional gain from using the premium rate number. Kind Regards Me xxx wastn't sure exactly what to word on the phone number bit, I get the reason, but not the technical wording. Also is there any point mentioning the "Only" Board or has this changed to the extent this is no longer needed? Thanks |
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Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:37
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would be a bit more tactical here. Don't send anything for now, because you don't want them to put the PCN on hold. On Monday 3rd December, check what the outstanding amount is on their website (that is the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the correct date of service, i.e. from 20 November). If on Monday 3rd November the amount outstanding is shown as £60, you have a virtually guaranteed win on "penalty exceeds" grounds, just make sure you take a timestamped screenshot.
If the charge on that day is still showing as £30, you can send your draft as it appears above. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:39
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,680 |
great thanks - I will wait until the 3rd.
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Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 09:47
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,680 |
Hi,
The 3rd is here and the PCN has gone up to £60 (2 days early). I was going to challenge with the following: Dear Sir/Madam, In regards to PCN: xyz The "Data of Service" on the PCN (18/11/2018) is incorrect, you point out on the PCN how the Data of Service is calculated: "Please note the Date of Service has been calculated for you being 2 working days after the date of posting, as sent by 1st class post unless you can prove otherwise" The Date PCN issued and posted is stated as 16/11/2018, plus 2 working days and the actual Date of service should read 20/11/2018. Therefore the PCN does not comply with The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005 in that the date of service given on the PCN is incorrect. The effect of this fault is prejudicial and unfair in that it truncates the statutory time scales relating to the discount period, the 28 day limit and has the potential for a premature Charge Certificate. The discounted rate of £30 has increased prematurely today to £60 (03/12/2018). In addition to this I also note that Cambridgeshire Council are also enforcing a premium rate telephone number for payments, this is fundamentally an over charge as you are making additional gain from using the premium rate number. Due to the error in the service date and the premium rate phone number, I therefore contend that the PCN is a nullity and not enforceable on the grounds that the penalty exceeds that due. Kind Regards Any thoughts? Thanks This post has been edited by gready: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 09:49 |
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 22:57
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I think the first ground you rely on is fine, if the charge has gone up prematurely they cannot argue with that.
However the second ground is more technical and I would expand it slightly, have a read of this (do not just copy/paste it as it's lead to disastrous outcomes in the past): http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1432909 This FOI response will be of interest to you: https://www.scribd.com/document/394914664/FOI-875436-IR-RES -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 14:25
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,680 |
Hi, Had recent confirmation the PCN was cancelled - although they werent willing to accept the phone number charges, just the date of services argument.
I can confirm that we are aware of a small number of people who have received the incorrect information on the documents sent out. As such I have cancelled this PCN as the error is ours and please accept our sincere apologies. However I do have to advise you that the PCN was correctly served, this location is prohibited to vehicles other than buses, taxis and emergency vehicles. Any further PCNs issued will not be cancelled. The telephone line you refer to is only one of the methods of making a payment, there is alternative ways of making a payment which included going online or sending a cheque by post to make a payment depending on the convenience of the customer. Thanks for the help! |
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Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 16:46
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Hi, Had recent confirmation the PCN was cancelled - although they werent willing to accept the phone number charges, just the date of services argument. I can confirm that we are aware of a small number of people who have received the incorrect information on the documents sent out. As such I have cancelled this PCN as the error is ours and please accept our sincere apologies. However I do have to advise you that the PCN was correctly served, this location is prohibited to vehicles other than buses, taxis and emergency vehicles. Any further PCNs issued will not be cancelled. The telephone line you refer to is only one of the methods of making a payment, there is alternative ways of making a payment which included going online or sending a cheque by post to make a payment depending on the convenience of the customer. Thanks for the help! In cases like this I always suggest to email them and ask for clarification of what the error was. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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