Stopped on a red double line |
Stopped on a red double line |
Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:03
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
Hi
I received a PCN on 25/06 because I stopped on a red double line. I know, I shouldn't have stopped on the double line but I had to deliver a parcel to a bank, I was late and there was no free loading bay around. So I tried and challenged the PCN on this ground. They rejected the appeal but increased it to £130!! They should have held it at the discounted amount as I made the representation on 07/06 which was during the discounted period. I don't know what to do now? I upload the PCN and their response. Thanks for your help. This post has been edited by Bahar20: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:05 |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:03
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:09
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
How did you make reps? any proof they were served on TfL by the 7th?
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:10
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Go online and see what amount is showing and also copy the status timeline.
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:11
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Can you prove that the challenge was sent when you say and how did you challenge?
7/6/18 was day 14 but that is still within the 14 day period, TFL helpfully state on the back that they will hold the discount to are bound by that but the onus is on you to show when and how it should have been received by TFL, not just sent. Assuming online reps, you should have had a receipt and hopefully you kept a copy of the reps. If by email, you should have a copy of the email and can be shown sent to right email address. If sent by post on 7th, too late, it would not arrive in time. |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:20
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
If sent by post on 7th, too late, it would not arrive in time. Just clarifying - 7th was a Saturday, so if posted, last day of posting 1st class would be Wednesday 4th, which is 2 business days before Friday 6th? If by email, anytime until 23.59 on 7th? This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:27 -------------------- |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:35
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
.........If by email, anytime until 23.59 on 7th? If I recall correctly, emails are deemed served when sent, same as Faxes. As the offer on the PCN refers to simple days without a cut off time, 11.59 will do, matters not this is a Saturday. Same as on line reps though time on receipt is what will count as that is the only time that can be verified. |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:36
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
I made the rep online and I can prove it as I received a reference nr for it.
This post has been edited by Bahar20: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:38 |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 22:54
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21,015 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
If they're trying to whallop you for the £130 it is now a no-brainer to take them all the way to London Tribunals, but I would first reply to that letter pointing out their committment to re-offering the discount if reps are received within the discount period, and attach a copy of the response to your on-line reps. If they then bluff their way, you'll have to wait for the Notice to Owner and appeal that on the same basis. By not maintaining their commitment to maintain he discount they are acting unfairly, and you would win at adjudication on "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case"
TfL have a reputation for cr*p management of the enforcement process, I'm afraid. "We can't get the staff, guv'nor" |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 08:01
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 09:14
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
I wouldn't contact them before the notice to owner unless you are willing to pay the discount.
At the moment you have clear evidence that they have failed in their duty to abide by their written commitment which in turn means that they are claiming more then is due in the circumstances of the case. The first is a procedural impropriety, the second a ground for cancellation in its own right. If you wait for the Notice to Owner (I assume that your registration document V5c is up to date and shows the correct address so the NTO will find you) you can then challenge on those grounds. If TFL reject it becomes an easy win. If they re-offer discount, a gamble to go further but one that should win. No guarantees but should. |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 19:50
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 19:57
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Go online and see what amount is showing and also copy the status timeline. I checked online and it shows £130 but what do you mean by copying the status? If you click on status (I think) it should show a drop down timeline of what they have done so far and when. |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 20:01
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
I wouldn't contact them before the notice to owner unless you are willing to pay the discount. At the moment you have clear evidence that they have failed in their duty to abide by their written commitment which in turn means that they are claiming more then is due in the circumstances of the case. The first is a procedural impropriety, the second a ground for cancellation in its own right. If you wait for the Notice to Owner (I assume that your registration document V5c is up to date and shows the correct address so the NTO will find you) you can then challenge on those grounds. If TFL reject it becomes an easy win. If they re-offer discount, a gamble to go further but one that should win. No guarantees but should. Yes my V5c is up to date. Ok then I will wait for Notice to owner as I can't challenge it again anyway. Thanks Go online and see what amount is showing and also copy the status timeline. I checked online and it shows £130 but what do you mean by copying the status? If you click on status (I think) it should show a drop down timeline of what they have done so far and when. It shows It started to be on Hold from 07/06! |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 20:06
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Ok is 26/6 the last status update?
take a screen shot of all of it as it could be useful in backing up your appeal. |
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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 20:20
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 20:22
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
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Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 14:04
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 274 Joined: 19 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,499 |
7/6/18 was day 14 but that is still within the 14 day period, TFL helpfully state on the back that they will hold the discount to are bound by that but the onus is on you to show when and how it should have been received by TFL, not just sent. Don't they say they'll continue to offer the discount while they consider the reps, but the OP have not been reoffered they discount after the rejection - I can't personally see how this is a PI as they don't promise it? (or they seem to have received a result of the informal reps saying the charge has been increased). Ignore me if I've misread this, but I can't see how this has been promised in this case! |
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Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:59
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 7 Aug 2017 From: London Member No.: 93,408 |
7/6/18 was day 14 but that is still within the 14 day period, TFL helpfully state on the back that they will hold the discount to are bound by that but the onus is on you to show when and how it should have been received by TFL, not just sent. Don't they say they'll continue to offer the discount while they consider the reps, but the OP have not been reoffered they discount after the rejection - I can't personally see how this is a PI as they don't promise it? (or they seem to have received a result of the informal reps saying the charge has been increased). Ignore me if I've misread this, but I can't see how this has been promised in this case! Yes They should have re-offered the discounted amount but I am not sure how to make a representation to make the whole PCN to be cancelled? |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:08
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ???? The Penalty Exceeds the Amount Due in the Circumstances of the Case I challenged the original PCN during the 14 day discount period. A copy of the receipt to my challenge is attached that confirms this. When TFL rejected the challenge, they failed to re-offer the discount as they state they would do on the PCN. This removed my opportunity to pay at the reduced fee and forced me to wait for the Notice to Owner to challenge again. In not offering the discount, TFL sought to charge an amount that exceeded that was due. This is grounds alone to cancel the PCN. Procedural Impropriety In failing to re-offer the discount, TFL failed in their common law duty to act fairly and to honour their promise to re-offer. This is a step not allowed and as such is a procedural impropriety and grounds alone to cancel. I look forward to your confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled. Hugs and Kisses |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:44
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#20
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Add this one if you want as back-up:-
2170466220 The appellant attended. He provided evidence that his informal representations were logged with the local authority on 28th May 2017. I have caused a copy of it to be scanned onto the system as evidence. In the local authority's letter of 26th June 2016 they do not offer the reduced penalty amount. There is no statutory provision stating that a local authority shall re-offer the reduced penalty amount when they reject representations received by them within 14 days of the service of the penalty notice. The inclusion or exclusion of this in the on-street penalty notice is at the discretion of the local authority. Should they include it, of course, they should honour it. In their case summary the local authority states that the representations were received after the 14 days deadline but I find as a fact that this was not the case. The test is whether the public body has issued a promise or adopted a practice, which represents how it proposes to act. The law requires it to be honoured. It takes its place alongside a fair trial. In the High Court case of Fivepounds.co.uk Mr. Justice Bean stated that a legitimate expectation must be a representation, which may include a regular practice and a course of dealing, whereby a public body may create an expectation from which it would be an abuse of power to resile. The representation must be clear, unambiguous and unqualified. I will therefore allow the appeal because the reduced amount was not re-offered contrary to what is said in the penalty notice. -------------------Mick |
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